A joule is a watt second. If you took 100 seconds to deliver a joule then you would need a light output of 0.01 joules/second.
Kirk
Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Holy crap I don't think they are using diodes to get that intensity. 4
joules/cm^2 Isn't that like 40 suns intensity? How do they keep from
burnig these tissues up?
Joe
Kirk McLoren wrote:
> Thank you Mr Kelly for the fascinating information. I will try to post
> some url's for references I have found sometime today. I am at the
> moment trying to get some information from Marubeni America Corp re some
> illuminators. The Doctor at U of Wisconsin said that the ir penetrated
> 23cm at useful energy levels.I take that to be about 8 inches of tissue.
> Dosage was 4 joules per cm2 per treatment at the surface.
>
> I had seen this stuff before but when faced with the possibility of
> putting an injured stud down got very interested in accelerating healing.
>
> Kirk
>
> */Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Bob,
> You Wrote:
> "40%-wow, and how does this light get to the mitochondria? what
> photosynthetic apparatus exists in the mitochondria that isn't
> reported in
> any current biochemistry textbook? This is an astounding revelation
> if true. I googled around a bit and find nothing. Any hints as to
> where to
> look for support for such a claim?"
>
>
> This might take a while ..... you might think it's a stretch, but I
> think
> a relationship between light and energy harvest in the mitochondria
> is at
> least a possibility. I have no idea of a specific %, or how such a
> relationship would serve a purpose ..... most cells of multicellular
> organisms don't get much exposure to light.
>
> When one examines the ATP harvested in mitochondria by the oxidation of
> organic compounds ("Oxidative Phophorylation")
> and the formation of ATP within plants cells utilizing light energy
> ("Photophosphorylation) the similarities far outweigh the
> differences. Both
> involve elecrons being passed from higher to lower energy levels
> through a
> series of electron transport molecules. Both involve using the energy
> released in the formation of proton (H+) gradients across membranes.
> Both
> include special membrane passageways" (ATP synthetase complexes)
> that allow
> the H+ to flow down the gradient through the otherwise impermeable
> membrane
> (to H+) and capture the energy they release in ATP molecules. The key
> difference is the source of energy. The question seems to be: Can light
> energy increase mitochondrial energy harvest?
>
> Biology (5th Edition) by Helena Curtis & N. Sue Barnes
> "Mechanisms of Stomatal Movements" pp. 653 - 655.
>
> "It has long been known that the osmotic movement of water is
> involved in
> the opening and closing of the stomata.
> ........ the critical factor affecting the osmotic movement of water
> into
> and out of the cells is the potassium ion (K+).
> With an increase in K+ concentration, the stomata open, and with a
> decrease
> they close.
> ........ Hydrogen ions (H+) are pumped in the opposite direction,
> (of K+),
> producing a decreased H+ conc within the guard cells of open stomata.
> The active transport of K+ ions between the guard cells and the
> surrounding epidermal cells is, of course, an energy-requiring
> process. The
> energy source is not yet known, but, on the basis of present
> evidence, one
> of two possibilities seem likely."
> 1. (ATP formed by photosynthesis in chloroplasts of the guard cells)
>
> 2. "Another possibility is that the transport of H+ ions, in a
> direction
> opposite to that of the K+ ions, establishes an electrochemical
> gradient
> down which the K+ ions move. (My asterisks)**** If this should be
> the case,
> the transport of K+ ions into and out of the guard cells - and thus,
> the
> opening and closing of the stomata - would be
> yet another example of a vital process powered by a chemiosmotic
> mechanism
> (page 197)."
>
> p. 197 Describes how energy is harvested by mitochondria as a result of
> the formation of a "proton gradient" (H+ gradient) between the
> matrix and
> the intermembranal space of mitochondria. "Potential energy stored
> in the
> gradient is
> released" (as H+ flow down the gradient through ATP-synthetase
> complexes)
> "and captured in the formation of ATP"
>
> (We're getting there) Still p 197:
> "The proton gradient is established as electrons move down the electron
> transport chain.At three transition points in the chain, significant
> drops
> occur in the amount of potentail energy held by the electrons. As a
> consequence, relatively large amounts of energy are released at each of
> these three steps - as electrons move from FMN to coenzyme Q ....."
>
> My Note: FMN is Flavin MonoNucleotide (derived from riboflavin), a key
> player in the electron transport chain within mitochondria. Closely
> related
> FAD (Flavin Adenine Dinucleotide) is a source of the electrons that
> are fed
> into the electron transport chain. It transports electrons from the
> Krebs
> Cycle within the mitochondrial matrix to the e- transport chain
> embedded in
> the inner mitochondrial membrane.
>
> MY POINT: Flavin compounds play key roles in energy harvest within the
> mitochondria.
>
> Curtis and Barnes (pp. 654 - 655):
> "Blue light has long been known to stimulate stomatal opening
> independent of
> CO2 concentration. When isolated guard cells from onion are
> illuminated with
> blue light in the presence of potassium ions, they swell. The
> light-absorbing pigment (which is thought to be located in either
> the cell
> membrane or the vacuole membrane) promotes the uptake of K+ ions by the
> guard cells. Recent studiers have demonstrated that this uptake of
> K+ ions
> is a secondary effect, and that the primary effect of the
> interaction of
> blue light with the pigment is to stimulate the pumping of H+ ions
> out of
> the guard cells.Although these experiments provide support for the
> hypothesis that an electrochemical gradient of H+ ions powers K+
> transport,
> they do not rule out the possible involvement of ATP."
>
> **** (My asterisks) "The blue-absorbing pigment, which would be
> yellow in
> color, is thought to be flavin; as you may recall (page195),
> flavin-containing nucleotides are among the electron carriers
> involved in
> cellular respiration in the mitochondria."
>
> Additionally:
> Cyclic electron flow occurs in plant cells when additional ATP is
> needed beyond that for C-fixation and reduction. Light energy is
> absorbed
> by a pigment. Electrons are boosted to higher energy levels and passed
> through a series of e- acceptors (including FMN) ----> a proton (H+)
> gradient. ATP is formed, but no O2 is released, no CO2 is fixed, no
> sugars
> formed
> It is believed to be the most primitive photosynthetic mechanism. It is
> essentially Photosystem I acting independently of Photosystem II
> with e-
> recycling back to the pigment after releasing the captured light
> energy ----> ATP
>
> It took me a while, but you can't help but be fascinated with the fact
> that flavins are involved in energy harvesting processes within the
> mitochondria and very likely play a role, when stimulated by light,
> in an
> energy-requiring process in guard cells of plants as well as being
> involved
> in a light-absorbing, energy - yielding process that is of primitive
> origins, but still used by plants and some bacteria. Further, that
> each of
> the processes involve establishing proton gradients across cell
> membranes.
> May be "nothing more" than nature's penchant for utilizing very similar
> chemicals for apparently different ends. Curious, none the less.
> Tom
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bob allen"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Healing with light
>
>
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > http://www.mcw.edu/display/router.asp?DocID=1
> >
> > put light in the search box and you will have access to some pdf's of
> > published papers. They say there is photochemistry besides
> chlorophyll.
> > I remember an article at NASA said 40% of the mitochondrial chemical
> > energy was instead supplied directly by photons.
>
>
> 40%-wow, and how does this light get to the mitochondria? what
> photosynthetic apparatus exists in the mitochondria that isn't reported
> in any current biochemistry textbook? This is an astounding revelation
> if true. I googled around a bit and find nothing. Any hints as to where
> to look for support for such a claim?
>
>
> sorry if i find this hard to grasp but you suggest that NASA says that
> almost half of the energy required to run my body comes from photons- I
> bet calculations from first principles- caloric values of food eaten
> compared to body temperature for base metabolism wouldn't show a 40%
> discrepancy. but I could be wrong.
>
>
> There has been testing
> > at a childrens cancer hospital and others. Looks really good.
>
>
> initial results nearly always look good, otherwise the wouldn't be
> reported. However, children are particularly susceptible to the placebo
> effect. Everything from acute pain to viral infections (warts) have been
> resolved via a placebo effect. Do you think these results included
> consideration of the placebo effect?
>
>
> >
> > Did you use the link at the bottom of the article?
>
> yes but I didn't see much more to convince me.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Kirk
> >
> > */bob allen /* wrote:
> >
> > Howdy Kirk,
> >
> > I looked over the report and although the claims sound promising, I
> > am bothered by the rather
> > shallow explanation of the effect:
> >
> > So far, what we see in patients and what we see in laboratory cell
> > cultures, all point to one
> > conclusion," said Dr. Whelan. "The near-infrared light emitted by
> > these LEDs seems to be perfect
> > for increasing energy inside cells. This means whether you're on
> > Earth in a hospital, working on
> > a submarine under the sea, or on your way to Mars inside a
> > spaceship, the LEDs boost energy to
> > the cells and accelerate healing."
> >
> > just what the heck do they mean by boosting energy in the cell?
> > other than cells with a
> > photosynthetic apparatus, there is no mechanism for turning
> > electromagnetic energy into ATP, the
> > energy currency of all cells. near IR energy would warm the cells,
> > but so would a 25 watt light
> > bulb or a candle. If the light stimulates growth factors, protein
> > synthesis, rna _expression_ or
> > whatever say so, but don't give me some lame claim as to "increasing
> > energy". This sound way too
> > mystical.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > >
> > > *Mice were blinded with methanol and 95% had their sight restored.*
> > >
> > > Kirk
> > >
> > >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > *http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002355.html*
> > >
> > >
> > > *Healing with Light Moves Beyond Fiction*
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fans of the Star Trek television shows can recall many stirring
> > scenes of medical officers
> > > treating patients without drugs or surgery, using instead a
> > device the size of a cell phone that
> > > sends out light rays to "miraculously" heal wounds and cure
> > disease before their very eyes. Now,
> > > the use of light emitting diodes (LED) in the practice of
> > medicine has moved well beyond science
> > > fiction and into the real world. Soldiers injured by lasers in
> > combat, astronauts in space and
> > > children in cancer wards are already benefiting from the healing
> > properties of near-infrared
> > > light in ways that could only be imagined a few years ago.
> > Several research projects at the
> > > Medical College of Wisconsin are at the center of LED treatment
> > development and the application
> > > of new technology to a wide range of injury and illness. "The
> > potential is quite endless," said
> > > *Harry T. Whelan, MD* , Medical College Bleser Professor
> > > of Neurology, Pediatrics and Hyperbaric Medicine. "I like to say
> > that the history of medicine,
> > > since the beginning of time, has been poisons and knives. Drugs
> > usually poison some enzyme system
> > > for the benefit of the patient. Think about the drugs you take:
> > Digitalis is digitoxin; it's
> > > from the foxglove plant and it poisons your heart gently to help
> > you with cardiac disease. Motrin
> > > and aspirin basically poison the prostaglandin system to decrease
> > pain by poisoning the
> > > inflammatory cascade. Blood thinners basically poison the
> > clotting system, and on and on and on.
> > > "So all these drugs that we take are poisons carefully dosed to
> > help the patient. And then, of
> > > course, knives. That's surgery, in which you have to cut the
> > patient in order to cure. In this
> > > particular strategy, what we're trying to do is use the energy of
> > certain specific wavelengths of
> > > light, which are carefully studied in our research lab, to
> > determine those that will enhance the
> > > cells' normal biochemistry instead of poisoning something that is
> > supposed to occur or cutting
> > > at it. I consider that a paradigm shift in the entire approach to
> > medicine that has the
> > > potential, therefore, to alter all kinds of disease processes,
> > particularly any in which there's
> > > an energy crisis for the tissue." Light emitting diodes -
> > commonly used for clock displays and in
> > > many other electronic devices - produce near-infrared light, a
> > form of energy just outside the
> > > visible range. Cells exposed to LED light in this range have been
> > found to grow 150% to 200%
> > > faster than cells not given and LED "bath" because, in simple
> > terms, the light arrays speed up
> > > the healing process by increasing energy inside the cells.
> > *Relief for Young Cancer Patients*
> > > Much of the research into the use of LEDs in medicine has spun
> > off from projects funded by the
> > > Defense Department and the National Aeronautics and Space
> > Administration (NASA). For example,
> > > when LEDs worked well in providing light to grow plants on the
> > Space Station, researchers found
> > > that the diodes also showed promise in many medical applications.
> > NASA then funded Medical
> > > College research and clinical trials using LEDs to treat cancer
> > patients following bone marrow
> > > transplants. Mucositis, a very painful side effect of cancer
> > treatment, produces throat and mouth
> > > ulcerations and gastrointestinal problems so severe that health
> > suffers as chewing and
> > > swallowing food and drink become difficult or even impossible. In
> > the first trial at Children's
> > > Hospital of Wisconsin, LED treatment proved so successful in
> > treating mucositis in the young
> > > patients that another round of trials has been funded. "We have
> > now at Children's Hospital
> > > essentially prevented mucositis since we've been treating these
> > patients once a day for eighty
> > > seconds with our handheld light emitting diode arrays," said Dr.
> > Whelan. "Now we have the FDA
> > > (Food and Drug Administration) in collaboration with us
> > performing a multi-center trial
> > > throughout the United States and several foreign countries. If we
> > can replicate the results in
> > > other centers and reproduce that same data, which we have
> > published, that will become the
> > > standard of care. I contacted the FDA when we had achieved these
> > results, because it was pretty
> > > dramatic and we were actually surprised by how well it worked.
> > We're already well into the
> > > multi-center trial and we anticipate being done in five years.
> > "If a patient has cancer and you
> > > treat with the (current) standards, which are surgery, radiation
> > and chemotherapy, in some case
> > > you can cure the patient with standard treatment, which is great.
> > Then there will be those who
> > > have recurrences and you escalate into more and more aggressive
> > experimental therapies to try to
> > > save their life. Eventually, if you can kill the cancer no other
> > way, you give a lethal dose of
> > > chemotherapy and radiation to kill the tumor. "But then, so you
> > don't kill the patient, you
> > > rescue them by giving them a bone marrow transplant that replaces
> > the red blood cells and the
> > > white blood cells so you don't have clotting problems and bleed
> > to death or die from overwhelming
> > > infection or severe anemia. It does not rescue the mucous
> > membranes, the kidney, the liver, or
> > > all kinds of other areas where high-dose chemotherapy and
> > radiation can lead to side effects. The
> > > mucous membranes in particular become sore, hemorrhagic, and
> > extremely painful. This prevents
> > > the patients from eating or drinking anything so they become
> > dependent on intravenous feeding and
> > > wracked with pain in bone marrow transplant isolation wards."
> > *LEDs on the Battlefield* As a
> > > leading researcher in the general field of LED treatment, a
> > pediatric neurologist, and a medical
> > > officer in the US Naval Reserves with an extensive background of
> > various active duty military
> > > medicine postings, Dr. Whelan speaks enthusiastically about
> > positive outcomes that may have their
> > > beginnings on battlefields or in space but end up being applied
> > in places like the Children's
> > > Hospital cancer unit. He is principal investigator for the
> > "Persistence in Combat" research
> > > program at the Medical College, a program of the Defense Advanced
> > Research Projects Agency
> > > (DARPA). "DARPA was created in 1956 when the Russians launched
> > Sputnik," said Dr. Whelan. "The US
> > > government established this agency to start a space program to
> > catch up with the Russians before
> > > they put bombs above us. Then our own Congress decided that they
> > didn't want the military in
> > > this country to control space either, so shortly thereafter they
> > spun off NASA. DARPA continues
> > > to exist and is important for research. They look for high risk,
> > high gain projects, things that
> > > are so crazy that they might not work but if they do it's really
> > good. I like DARPA because
> > > they're interested in doing science like I thought it would be
> > cool when I was a kid, not science
> > > that's boring. "In the Defense Department work, the idea is rapid
> > battlefield care, self-care
> > > being the optimum. If you're in a modern special operations
> > scenario, you're in a small rapidly
> > > mobile unit expected to be self-sufficient that may not be
> > evacuated for over 96 hours if there
=== message truncated ===
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