And as to the topic of this thread.... I think that bicycles is going to be the answer for everything except heavy hauling, which will revert back to biofueled rail. Anything else is just too energy intensive to be kept up long term from either a emissions, technological, or geopolitical perspective. Even if we get super quick charge long range electric cars which are charged from stationary sources, the energy use for cars as we know them is so insanely high (most people use more energy for their car than their entire house) that it just doesn't make much sense. The question is how long it will take us to be reduced to this carless state. Ironically, I think we will be carless sooner if we stick with SUV's, than if we did invest alot of energy into developing superefficient biodiesel/PV/plug in hybrids.
Zeke
On 8/7/06, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Doug and all,I remember looking into that technology years ago. The concept itself has a lot of merit but it was a safety and materials nightmare. Imagine a very heavy flywheel spinning at very high RPM's. The energy storage capacity is great but what happens if something breaks. You get lots of high energy parts flying about capable of causing great damage or injury. Does anyone know if they have come up with new shielding. I imagine the bearings are much better today.Tom
From: lres1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 07:55:40 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Can anyone remember in the mid to late sixties a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars?The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the Gyroscopic effects and did not "lay over" as a standard bike in cornering. Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support.The car proto was a different kettle of fish with many types of rotors available.Can any one remember these as they were easy to re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel which put power back into the flywheel. The same as the car and bike on braking the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss compared to maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was scrapped but seems not to be about any more.The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the time. No PV cells needed.Doug----- Original Message -----From: Michael RedlerSent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.
However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies ( i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).
I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy scheme being discussed is now a possibility since fast electrical storage could turn our attention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.
- Redler
Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,
If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include
capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up
top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.
Here's one person's expiriment:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.php
Kirk McLoren wrote:
> The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non
> concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source.
> The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the
> hybrids are gasoline.
> The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology
> such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have
> to muddle through.
> Kirk
>
> */Ron Peacetree /* wrote:
>
> Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread...
>
> A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/
> photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the
> basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional
> gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at
> acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc.
>
> (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that
> I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea
> could satisfy.)
>
> A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps
> more if optimized for constant rpm.
>
> The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since
> they provide far more energy per unit weight.
> Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for
> increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid
> battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the
> power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in.
> For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics"
> like Li-ion are of course an option.
> However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of.
>
> PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm
> told by people in the that business that mass production would
> _significantly_ reduce their costs.
>
> This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a
> normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it.
>
> With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as
> to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I
> would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for
> bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount
> of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the
> biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the
> current estimates.
>
> Doing this would not only be "green" and conserve our petro-diesel
> resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source
> for, such as certain plastics and medical products, ....
>
> It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence
> in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely
> cause of WWIII.
>
> Where do I sign? And how do We get "our leaders" to pursue what
> seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who
> loves their children and their planet?
>
> Ron Peacetree
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