From: Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the topic...New BD stuff
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:05:35 -0500
I haven't picked up the tank - so have nothing invested in aluminum. Can
you post a design of your processor? It sounds pretty cool. I am now on
to my
4th processor and would like to try something new - all have been
modified versions of the old tried and true.
I have concluded that the clear tank is a 67 gallon acrylic tank - any
thoughts on Acrylic?
-Mike
Thomas Kelly wrote:
> Jim,
> Wow!!!
> Interesting idea ..... the processor design.
> Please keep us posted.
> Tom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* JAMES PHELPS <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2007 12:21 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Back to the topic...New BD stuff
>
> No not intended as such Tom and I was just expressing definitely
> not wanting to be confrontational, all due respect.
> The best way to tell is take some methoxil and put it in the
> aluminum tank. If the aluminum is a higher alloy my bets are
> Nada because of the experience I have had with it. When buffered
> in oil as it would be then even less. Just try it. Low alloy or
> pure aluminums may exhibit widely different results. my guess is
> the tank is high alloy just by the fact it is in that form.
> Ok thats all I have to say about that. I am glad others disagree
> with me, it allows the subject to be explored well and we all learn.
> Now on the matter of the parts, I feel that that environment is
> probably higher pressure, oxygen free, and also erosive dirt) so
> any coating could be eroded, then the chemicals (under pressure)
> can get an inroad to corrosion. This is not comparing apples with
> apples however.
> Any way, I am not advocating this is a good thing to go purchase.
> I do think that Mike can probably make bio till the cows come home
> in his tank and
> when it Kaputs it Kaputs and for free big deal. Then he can go out
> and spend 200 on my version that will never ever need replacing.
> The cool part is he is doing the earth a favor by re-using
materials.
> Consider;
> Ok now on to my new processor; I am not going to go into great
> detail here but consider each 100 foot coil of PE pipe holds 70
> liters (From memory) of fluid and a 100 foot roll is pretty small.
> Consider 4 of these rolls tied together with one inlet and one
> outlet. (280 Liters). ~$100 US
> Now add a clear water pump with a suction that is tied to a tee so
> oil can be introduced to the system until full then valved to go
> into recycle. on the discharge 4 - 3/4" venturis that then
> manifold together to the suction of another pump but this time a
> diaphragm pump 3/4" then into the coil.
> Now on the outlet of the coil we have a plastic cone bottomed tank
> (130 liters - thats a total of 420 L of total fluid) with a stem
> pipe that allows the discharged oil to Cyclone around the stem
> pipe. At the bottom is a drain and the other end of the stem pipe
> goes to the tee where it can recycle.
> Ok now oil is heated and immersion heater maintains when in
> system. Then when the desired amount is in and there is about 6"
> over the stem pipe the system is placed into recycle. Now that
> this is going on (and of course you have left room for the
> methoxil) you introduce the methoxil through the venturi suctions
> at a slow and metered pace. The idea is to run out when the first
> you put in is hitting the venturis for the second time but no
> worry if it is to fast or slow -this is forgiving.
> After the methoxil is entered hook the venturi lines to suck
> product back in or just shut the valve so they dont suck air.
> Start watching the glyceryn fall out and start draining it off as
> soon as it does. Most is gone in the first hour. Now run the pumps
> for another 2 hours and test using the methanol test to see if you
> have made a complete conversion add more methoxil if you have not
> ( you can calculate that by how much oil dropped to the bottom) If
> its a bright clear phase with no settling dump it to the wash
> tank and let sit over night, drain any residual glycerin and wash.
> Ok the venturis create the cavitations under pressure just like
> the ultrasonic transducer does but at a much lower cost.
> Now I have made only one small batch this way
> I am still experimenting but the batch finished perfect and really
> fast!
> No I am not advocating this is better or worse but I have high
> hopes for it and based on my first results I think it will help
> speed things up.
> I will do a full report when all my data is fully baked on this
> method but that will be later this year.
> My best,
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Thomas Kelly <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:49 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Back to the topic...New BD stuff
>
> Hi Jim,
> Please don't take this as a cross-examination. I have no
> experience w.
> aluminum tanks. My questions are based purely on curiosity.
>
> Are aluminum tanks lined with something to give them chemical
> resistance? My methanol tanks are lined with something. Many
> water heater
> tanks are glass-lined.
>
> If the resistance is due simply to an aluminum oxide coating
> formed by
> exposure to oxygen, shouldn't all aluminum parts be resistant
> to alkaline
> conditions?
> I've read that aluminum engine parts don't like unwashed BD
> because of
> the high pH. I've been told that pitted aluminum swimming pool
> ladders are a
> sign of pH "imbalance" in the water.
>
> I'm concerned that if someone used soy oil (high Iodine
> rating), then
> bubble-washes (oxidation), and also had a catalyst present
> they could end up
> with the heartbreak of polymerized fuel.
>
> You wrote:
> "I have evolved from the idea of the tank processor to a
> completly new
> design that is cheaper, safer, and faster so I really don't
> care for the
> tank style due to the inferior mixing that CAN take place."
>
> I'm very curious. Are you gonna fill us in on the design????
>
> Best to you,
> Tom
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the topic...New BD stuff
>
>
> > If the inside were truly aluminum, but it is not - it is
> compound of
> > aluminum coating the structure of aluminum, that is Very
> stable. There is
> > one, for sure,mbey more, element(s) that can wipe this away,
> it is
> > mercury.
> > The oxide layer is good as plastic until it meets mercury.
> >
> > I know testimonials are not worth the salt, but I know of
> one test of
> > biodiesel being placed in this very envionment, heated,
> stored for over a
> > year and never showing signs of polymerization or any thing
> else. The
> > owner
> > also has made and used the fuel from an aluminum processor
> for over two
> > years without any signs of ill effect.
> >
> > So for what it is worth, thats what I know. I have evolved
> from the idea
> > of
> > the tank processor to a completly new design that is
> cheaper, safer, and
> > faster so I really don't care for the tank style due to the
> inferior
> > mixing
> > that CAN take place.
> >
> > I wish you the very best of luck however in your ventures.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> >>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the topic...New BD stuff
> >>Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:19:19 -0500
> >>
> >>Mike,
> >> A transparent settling tank would be a thing of beauty.
Imagine
> >>subtle
> >>illumination from the back .... turn it into a BD lava lamp
> >>
> >> I think I would test it before filling it.
> >>
> >> I have no experience with BD and lucite, but if there is
> material
> >>incompatibility it may take the nasty form of the BD acting
> as a solvent.
> >>That would be bad. I have had BD cause gaskets to enlarge
> and turn
> >>loppy ----> leaks. I have also had BD dissolve rubber (neck
> of gas filler
> >>on my car ... very messy). IF the lucite dissolved it might
> be very bad
> >>for your fuel.
> >> Is the lucite tank one piece or is it circular w a bottom
> sealed to
> >>it?
> >>
> >>
> >> As for an aluminum processor ......
> >>
> >>You wrote:
> >>"However, BD is fine in aluminum tanks."
> >>
> >> >From Joe Street (Oct 6, 2006)
> >> "While looking for info on IR spectra, I found this
> excellent paper;
> >>
>
>>http://nationalbiodieselboard.com/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19970612_gen-234.pdf#search=%22biodiesel%20methyl%20ester%20wavenumber%22
> >>
> >>Which talks about issues surrounding fuel contamination and
> deposits.
> >>An earlier thread had comments from Tom Kelly regarding
> copper ions
> >>causing polymerization. According to this paper other metals
> such as
> >>aluminum and iron can catalyze polymerization when biodiesel
> is stored."
> >>
> >> While BD may not cause any apparent damage to aluminum
> tanks, the
> >>aluminum may be damaging to the fuel. I believe that harsh
> alkaline
> >>conditions in a processor will release aluminum into your
> fuel and also
> >>corrode the tank.
> >> Tom
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> >>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
> >>Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:27 PM
> >>Subject: [Biofuel] Back to the topic...New BD stuff
> >>
> >>
> >> >I have managed to score a 50 - 60 gallon aluminum tank
> with fittings -
> >> > perfect for a processor.
> >> > I also have a 67 gallon (looks like lucite) circular fish
> tank.
> >> >
> >> > I know MOX does not like aluminum, and have heard BD does
> not like
> >> > Lucite or Lexan or whatever this.
> >> > However, BD is fine in aluminum tanks.
> >> >
> >> > I am wondering if I can use the aluminum tank as a
> processor, being
> >> > careful when introducing the MOX - I've made BD in HDPE2
> containers
> >> > plenty (even the stray plastic bottle way early on).
> >> >
> >> > So, any thoughts on the aluminum as processor and the
> fishtank as a
> >> > wash
> >> > or settling tank?
> >> >
> >> > -Weaver
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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