Hi Tom Ten days later, sorry. :-(
>Keith, > Glad to hear from you on this one. :-) How could I not? > > I think composting in typical manure piles is a bit of a > > contradiction in terms. > > Maybe so. With some exceptions, and you can usually find one or two, but it seems to be the general rule. Despite all attempts at reform over the last 70 years or so. We've used cowdung here that we've brought in, from a small operation, compared with most, 40 beef cattle, but it's a lot of dung. It's handled quite well though. The beef is for a quality food outlet, local, and it's run by one old farmer from the villages here. I don't see much to criticise there, the beasts are healthy, well-housed, fed on hay with some grazing every day, the bedding is wood shavings and it's cleared out every day with a small loader, and stacked under a roof. It gets a bit hot and steams away but it's not exactly composting. It doesn't kill worms. He dumps half a ton of the stuff with his loader into the bed of our K-truck, it takes a couple of minutes, then it takes us an hour or two to shovel it all off again into a bin when we get back home. When we first moved from Osaka (city) to Ichijima (village) we visited I think eight cattle farms that were producing high-quality milk and dairy (not flash-pasteurised, not homogenised), but in all cases the manure was disgusting. The stuff we finally did get wasn't fresh, but it killed worms anyway. VOAs and VFAs, hydrogen sulphide, phosgene and so on, the inimical stuff you're checking for when you test allegedly finished compost with cress seeds - if they don't germinate it's not ready. Quicker to see if it kills worms or not (can be a bit tough on the worms though). Still, we could make quite good compost with that cowdung, once it was cured it didn't kill worms. That's been the case about everywhere I've been. Usually the manure is in bad condition. > When I first put in the garden many years ago, my neighbor, a dairy >farmer told me to help myself to mounds of rotted cow manure. He spread >manure on hay fields and corn fields during the winter and spring, but made >the mounds all summer and fall. He also told me of an old (possibly before >the age of plastics) horse barn that was small, but had quite a bit of >manure in it. > Both sources were hardly well-managed, but the rotted manure was >beautiful. The tops of the mounds apparently drained well. It was only as I >got to the lower, soggy level did it become offensive. I've used stuff like that, not bad if you can find it. If it's done just the same way but on good, fertile soil it can be fine all the way through. But usually it's on mud packed solid by heavy tractor wheels. Did your neighbour spread the offensive stuff at the bottom anyway? >The horse manure had >years to rot and protected from the elements had dried to a massive brick. >It was about two feet thick and I had to break through it with a pick axe. > I have half a dozen "compost" piles scattered about. They are not >managed at all and consist of brush, sod, dirt, old plants and vines and >sometimes grass clippings all piled up. I don't think their temps get much >above air temp, but eventually they rot and when I stumble upon one 2, 3 or >more years later they are great finds. > I think of such piles as examples of cold composting. It might get a bit mesophylic. It's a useful technique you can use where such material accumulates, as it does, rather than the extra work of moving it to a new site and layering/mixing with other material to make a thermophylic pile. But I think it should be complementary to managed piles rather than the main method. The product is nice, if it's had enough time, but I don't think it's as dynamic as thermophylic compost (if you think of it as a sort of inoculant). >Re: Using glycerin to help heat up a manure pile: > > If you don't build the pile properly in the > > first place, would the glycerine help? Or even work to raise the temp > > in a badly built pile? > > I suspect you're right. . > As I build my compost piles, the leaves are my "dries". Adding diluted >glycerine simply replaces the water I would otherwise have to add. The last >thing fresh manure needs is more liquid. Indeed not, especially when it's been left to accumulate long enough to be mixed with urine and the bedding and trampled on by heavy cattle. I don't think there's a quick fix for this problem short of improved management. > > This is a classic Tom, relevant to what you're asking and I think > > you'd like it: > > > > Fertility Farming by Newman Turner > > http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#turner1 > > I promise to read it. > > > The man who put composting on a scientific basis was Albert Howard. > > He did it much the same way as you, very similar, I'm sure it would > > have been Howard who inspired your grandfather, directly or > > indirectly. Back in Britain after he retired, Howard founded the > > organic growing movement, and started a crusade to reform the manure > > pile, which he said was the major weakness of Western agriculture. > > > > You remember my story of my grandfather's gardening influence on me >..... his "special garden dirt". I'm smiling from ear to ear. Of course I remember, your grandfather's someone I'd like to have met. > > I think you'd enjoy reading Howard too. Also at our Small Farms Library. > > Back in February I spent some time at the Organic Gardening and Small >Farms sections of JTF. It reminded me of my first actual lesson on >composting. > > In the mid 1970's I took a course called "Soil Microbiology". We plodded >along; essentially hours of lecture. An opportunity came up for me to ask >about making garden soil. I briefly described the mysterious piles of >rotting stuff by my grandfather's garden. The professor's eyes widened. He >became somewhat animated. It may have been the first time I ever heard the >term "compost". He described the construction of the pile and made sketches >on the blackboard. He went on for some time with far more enthusiasm that >anything we had seen before. Oh dear, I'd like to have met him too. > The following day he brought in samples of materials taken from his own >compost piles ....... at various stages of decay. He passed out a printed >instructions for building and maintaining a compost pile. He said that he >used the compost in his garden. I got the distinct impression that only he >and I were interested. Isn't that sad. >When it turned out that I was the only one in the >class who had a garden, So is that! >he gave me the bag of the finished product and told >me to work it into the soil around one or two of my tomato plants. > Later that week I built my first official compost pile. I tried to >follow the directions on the handout precisely. When I recently read Albert >Howard's description (@JTF) of how to build and maintain a compost pile I >had the distinct feeling that I had read it before ..... maybe it was the >same as the professor's handout. That's very likely. >The thrill of feeling that first pile >heating up is, I think, similar to getting a glycerine split on your first >test batch. Yes! It's magic! And you use the glycerin to make the compost hotter, double magic! > Since then, I've gone less formal; balance "wets" and "drys", keep it >well aerated and moist, but not soggy. Grass clippings, leaves and a bit of >rotting manure seem to have a good C:N ratio; turn it when I get the chance. Eventually you get a feel for it, an instinct for what it needs and how to handle it to get the results you want according to where you are and the way you like working. Every time I move to a new place I have to figure it out all over again, in a way. It always works though, no failures. > > Maybe they'd be willing to let you experiment a bit and supervise the > > building of a manure pile in such a way that it might actually > > compost properly, along with the glyc additive. I've done that a > > couple of times (without the glyc), with cow manure and also horse > > manure, and it did work, it got hot and so on, broke down well > > enough. That horse stable was still selling composted horse dung in > > bags to gardeners last time I looked, which was 20 years after I > > showed them how to do it. > > The man who manages the farm is a good man and my nearest neighbor. >He and his wife have been very impressed with my garden. I've told them that >the "secret" is to build the soil with compost. I hope to have put "a bug" >in his ear. :-) Keep trying, good luck! > What could I use as "drys" to break up the manure and ensure proper >aeration? Maybe all it needs is occasional turning to aerate. That's the simplest, so try that first. What I said above about putting it on good, well-drained soil might be worth considering too. If you do it quite well and rotate the piles about the place you'd be making a succession of very fertile patches of ground, which might have some appeal. If you have to bring in drys to break it up, I'm sure you know how to go about that. It depends on what's easily available. You might have to adjust the C:N ratio, less simple again. >A friend came >by earlier today with his tractor (to help me get a few barrels of methanol >into my shed.) The last time he was here I was turning a compost pile by >hand. This time he asked if the pile needed turning. His bucket did in 5 >minutes what usually takes me almost an hour. Neither of us broke a sweat. I >like turning my compost piles by hand, but a large manure pile would be a >different story. I think it's essential, if it's not quick and easy he'd probably be somewhat justified in saying it's not worth his while. > Another neighbor (over the hill) brings me horse manure. He drives his >tractor and pulls a manure spreader. The spreader flings the manure into a >nice fluffy pile near my compost. It definitely heats up ..... "steams" on >cool mornings. I'm trying to envision how to "manage" a manure pile and make >it more of a compost pile. I think that's quite easy, but what's not so easy is persuading them to do it. So what you propose should be as little extra and as little different from what they already do as possible. Try composting the pure manure, as is. Well, manure plus bedding I suppose. Maybe turning it a couple of times with a loader will be enough. The quality probably won't be as good as the thermophylic compost you make but it should be a good enough improvement to show worthwhile results (including the lack of an offensive layer at the bottom) so they'll be motivated to keep on doing it. If it needs more than that then we can consider a next step. > Thanks for helping me think this through I'm very interested, glad it helps. All best Tom Keith > Tom > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 5:05 AM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Weed seeds and manure piles > > > > Hello Tom > > > >>Hello to All > >>(But especailly anyone with dairy/cattle farming experience/knowledge) > >> > >> I'm surrounded by beautiful pastures with magnificent beef > >>cattle grazing in them. When I first moved here more than 25 years > >>ago it was a family-run dairy farm that surrounded me. Manure would > >>be spread over fields that were to be planted in corn. I don't > >>remember them spreading it on pasture land. Now it is all pasture > >>land. > >> I've been told that there are some "weed" seeds that not only > >>survive animals' digestive tracts, but also survive composting in > >>typical manure piles. > > > > I think composting in typical manure piles is a bit of a > > contradiction in terms. > > > > I wonder which weeds it refers to. > > > >>Spreading the manure on pastures contributes to pasture decline by > >>spreading the problem species. > >> Following this logic, using manure as fertilizer leads > >>to pasture decline and a more frequent cycle of spraying an > >>herbicide (roundup?) and then re-seeding vs. hauling away the manure > >>and applying commercial fertilizer. > >> "Pick your poison", so to speak. > >> > >> My interest is, first: Is this true (about the weed seeds > >>surviving in manure piles)? ...... manure contributing to > >>pasture decline? > > > > Weed seeds might well survive most manure piles, but not a compost pile. > > > > A lot depends on how the manure is managed (the off-pasture manure > > that is). If it builds up in the barn for six months, getting > > trampled into the bedding until it's feet deep, the stinking > > anaerobic muck that results is difficult to handle properly. It kills > > worms, for instance. If you spread it direct it can take the soil two > > years to recover. (Old-time farm workers could tell by the cooking > > smell and the taste if potatoes had been fertilised with cow muck or > > sheep muck.) > > > > It's not weed seeds that "cause" weeds, or that cause weeds to > > spread, weed seeds are always available when required. What causes > > weed seeds to germinate is a bit mysterious, there's no single > > answer, certainly not just because they're there. Some of them can > > remain dormant for long periods. Common causes are when the topsoil's > > exposed, or when the topsoil starts running out of minerals, or poor > > subsoil drainage. In other words weeds are a result of poor > > management (like other pests are too), especially of poor soil > > fertility maintenance and poor humus management. > > > > With good management you can keep a pasture fertile and productive > > for a long time. Grazing it with different kinds of livestock helps, > > not just cows. But rotational ley farming is the best way to do it, > > best for the whole farm, and the cattle, and the bottom line. > > > > This is a classic Tom, relevant to what you're asking and I think > > you'd like it: > > > > Fertility Farming by Newman Turner > > http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#turner1 > > > >> Second: I've found that the unsplit glycerine diluted with wash > >>water increases temps in my small compost piles. If the story of > >>weed seed survival is true, would spraying the mix on the manure > >>piles as they were being built raise their temps. enough to sanitize > >>them of the problem weed seeds? > > > > I wonder. Actually it should easily get hot enough to kill seeds > > anyway, shouldn't it? If you don't build the pile properly in the > > first place, would the glycerine help? Or even work to raise the temp > > in a badly built pile? > > > > I guess it's not pure manure, eh? Mixed with hay or straw or some > > kind of bedding? More than 25% manure is not a good idea in a pile. > > Is there such a thing as a well-built manure pile? If there were, > > wouldn't it be an ordinary compost pile? > > > > The man who put composting on a scientific basis was Albert Howard. > > He did it much the same way as you, very similar, I'm sure it would > > have been Howard who inspired your grandfather, directly or > > indirectly. Back in Britain after he retired, Howard founded the > > organic growing movement, and started a crusade to reform the manure > > pile, which he said was the major weakness of Western agriculture. > > > > I think you'd enjoy reading Howard too. Also at our Small Farms Library. > > > >> To me rotted manure is gold for the garden. I hate to see it > >>hauled away from a farm. > > > > Indeed. > > > > HTH - not sure whether this is the kind of information your local > > beef farmers would be prepared to listen to though, somehow I doubt > > they'd accept that weed seeds don't cause weeds. > > > > Maybe they'd be willing to let you experiment a bit and supervise the > > building of a manure pile in such a way that it might actually > > compost properly, along with the glyc additive. I've done that a > > couple of times (without the glyc), with cow manure and also horse > > manure, and it did work, it got hot and so on, broke down well > > enough. That horse stable was still selling composted horse dung in > > bags to gardeners last time I looked, which was 20 years after I > > showed them how to do it. > > > > Best > > > > Keith > > > > > > > >> Commments would be appreciated > >> Tom > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
