Gustl, I am sorry, but I am very sure of existence of the death camps etc.. Not only because I met a lo of survivors, but also the very large photographic evidence. Already in the early 50's I saw a lot of news reels, made mainly by the Americans. We did not have TV at that time and the news journals was shown before movies or at the three theatres in Stockholm that showed short news, nature, science and cartoons non stop.
If you want proof, there are a lot of it films, photographs and witness statement. I is so much and from various sources. that it is impossible to stage this. You also can look at material from all the court cases, which is an enormous amount. It is also documented that the "Holocaust" was organized by a small circle of people and the general German population was not aware or belive that this was going on. Many knew that about internment, because it was going on in public, but not about "the final solution". It was a very well guarded secret. Most Germans would have been seriously upset and revolted, if they would have known. I am not a supporter of making the German people in general responsible for what happened, this would be awfully wrong, You should also remember the very harsh punishment that was imposed on the German general population after WWI. It was no love lost on the Americans, French, English etc.. It was also general and severe poverty and hunger problems in Germany after the WWI peace and the Nazis managed to get the country out of that situation. You should also try to imagine a very much easier controlled news information situation and a very skillful Nazi apparatus to manage it. The Nazis not only invented terror bombing and other physiological warfare, they also invented mass media manipulation and became masters of it. Today we are used to it and especially the ones coming from USA and USSR, but the Americans are todays masters. You can imagine how easy it must have been to manipulate the German population, who had never been subject to such things. Do not make the mistake to measure the 1930's with todays measurement. Hakan At 04:32 PM 9/30/2007, you wrote: >Hallo All, > >Somehow I thought this was the Biofuel list but if I am going on >content then I guess it isn't and my reasons are below. > >First, this is 2007 not the dark ages. We actually have science now >and much of what has been posited as fact can be scientifically >verified or denied in a broad spectrum of areas. Forensics and >mathmatics. > >What has been called "The Holocaust" and accepted as undisputed fact >was not so named by those dubbed as "Holocaust deniers". The burden of >proof does not lie with the "deniers" but with those claiming that The >Holocaust was a planned, oragnized, orchestrated and executed attempt >to exterminate European Jewery by various methods but primarily in >"death camps" located initially both inside and outside the Reich >proper but subsequently only outside the Reich in occupied territory >in the east and primarily in Poland. > >All this has been posited by interested parties without a shred of any >evidence other than anecdotal and by the existence of the camps which >were called work camps by the Germans. There is not one single >offical German reference to such a program and the Germans documented >everything. They were hardly shy of announcing to the world of their >hatred of the Jews and there is no reason to believe that the Nazi's, >given their proclivity for hate, violence and brutality, would be >anything other than proud of their activity in this area and would >have not only considered it quite accomplished but also have >proclaimed it from hill to dale worldwide. > >IF the world want to shut all these "Holocaust deniers" mouths then it >is only necessary to do the science folks. Take the claims of those >"deniers" and either verify or falsify them one by one. They are >calling for science and mathematics so IF there is forensic and >mathmatical evidence to be had then provide it to them and shut them >up or if there is none to be had then admit it and let the fuss stop. >It is as simple as that. > >I don't know how many times Keith has told folks that if they make a >claim then back it up. Where is the difference? How is it that we are >willing to allow reason to simply not apply to this matter? We have >accusations and counter accusations and we now have the scientific >ability to lay this issue to rest. So why isn't it being laid to rest? >How is it that this cherished belief is exempt from scrutiny? > >What the Nazi's did in the name of Germany is bad enough. Should it >turn out that the holocaust revisionists are correct then what has >been done to Germany by the rest of the world is just as bad. I was >born in the United States of parents born in the United States but I >am old enough to have been called a Nazi in my youth because I came >from a German speaking family. I don't much like it. > >The German government has been owning up to "The Holocaust" since the >end of the war. IF it turns out that, in fact, there was no such >thing, no death camps, no extermination plans, then how quick is the >world going to be in saying, "Well, we were right about the rest of >the war but 100 percent wrong about that other little matter. Sorry >about that."? It isn't going to happen. Would anyone be sorry that >generations of Germans have grown up hating who they are because of a >lie? I don't think so. We, as a species, seem to be quick to point the >accusing finger but slow to apologize for a mistake if one has been >made. > >Finding out for a certainty whether or not this evil thing did or did >not happen would be nice. It is wearying to keep having this ground >ploughed again and again without having any crops come up. The seed >is there to be sown so why not do it? Send in a multi-national >scientific forensic team and do the science. Get a definitive answer >and lay this beast to rest. We have work to do and this thing does >nothing but divert attention from pressing problems. It can be >definitively decided. If the science and math are there then it is >laid to rest and if they are not there it is laid to rest. End of >story. > >I am somewhat disappointed that folks would jump on Molloy about this >without any evidence other than hearsay, assumptions and cherished >beliefs and particularly since Bob was asking questions not making >accusations. It is incumbent on those making the accusations of the >atrocities to give scientific evidence of not only the physical >possibility of the event but of the actual event. Leuchter, who >evidently went into the forensic investigation at the behest of a >"Holocaust denier" on trial in Canada I believe but with the personal >intention of gathering evidence proving the event, found no evidence >to support the claims of the Allies and the survivors of the camps, >but contrariwise, found it lacking. As he was working for the >"opposition" so to speak then let disinterested parties, perhaps a >United Nations scientific team of varying nationalities do the work. >No big shake. Why should Molloy take the heat? He just asked >some questions. > >I can't speak for anyone other than myself but I don't like being >wrong and if I am wrong I want to bring myself into line with that >which is right and am thankful for anyone helping me to be in the >right. "I'm wrong and proud of it." is not a slogan I advocate. Even >if it makes me uncomfortable or forces me to make fundamental >alterations to my belief and knowledge system I would rather be right >knowingly than ignorantly wrong. But that's just me. > >If someone wants me to believe them they are going to have to show me >the evidence. No hearsay or anecdotes. No "common knowledge" or >"eyewitness testimony" from interested parties. Was it mathematically >possible given the technology of the day and is there verifiable >forensic and other scientific evidence? Not a difficult thing to find >out I should think. Why the hesitation? > >Happy Happy, > >Gustl >-- >Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. >******** >We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. >******** >The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, >soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, >without signposts. >C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" >******** >Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, >daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht >gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. >******** >Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't >hear the music. >George Carlin >******** >The best portion of a good man's life - >His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. >William Wordsworth > > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
