Thanks, Keith, for the reply. I agree with you. SVO and BD users should be informed about the pro and contra arguments and then make their choice. And I think it is important to see the long term options.
Kind regards Reinhard "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Reinhard Henning wrote: > > >Albert Einstein often said: "Use the simplest thing that works, as > >long as it's the best thing." > > The proviso is critical, and in many cases it's context-sensitive - I > believe this is the case with the biodiesel vs SVO argument. In the > end it boils down to a matter of particular circumstances and > individual preferences. > > >This in mind one should compare the two actual possibilities to use > >plant oil as fuel: > > > >1) adaptation of the oil to the engine (bio-diesel, BD) > >2) modification of the engine to run on pure plant oil (straight > >vegetable oil, svo) > > > >Plant oil is pure stored solar energy in its densiest form (9,2 kg > >/l). It contains only the elements carbon C, hydrogen H and oxygen > >O. In the simplest way it is produced only by grinding of seeds and > >pressing (ram presses, expellers) it. Purification by sedimentation > >and / or filtration: Can somebody imagine a simpler method of > >producing highly concentrated, environmentally friendly energy. > > > >In a short term planning, it is interesting to use biodiesel, > >because you can use the already existing car engines. > > > >But in a longer perspective, it is more interesting to adapt the > >engines to run on pure plant oil (SVO). And you have all the > >advantages of an decentralized fuekl production. And you dont need a > >chemical workshop to produce your own fuele at home. A ram press for > >about 200 $ and some plastc barrel is all you need. > > That is not convincing Reinhard. In the future more diesels will > probably be adapted to SVO use, but that will leave millions of > vehicles all over the world not so adapted, bringing us back to the > same choice between making biodiesel and rigging a two-tank system > with heating etc to use SVO... on some vehicles, maybe not on others, > whereas biodiesel will work in any diesel. > > There is also a shortage of good, long-term studies on the effects of > using SVO, unlike with biodiesel, and no long-term studies on the use > of WVO that I'm aware of. None of the European manufacturers of SVO > systems covers the use of WVO, right? > > Biodiesel also gives you the advantage of decentralised fuel production. > > There is no need to have a chemical workshop to produce biodiesel at > home. It is simple. > > $200 would more than cover the costs of everything needed to make > biodiesel, and no need for a ram press. > > >For the mean time, you can convert your diesel engines into plant > >oil engines (the still run on diesel). The conversion kits are not > >expensive, but they are a bit different for one engine or the other. > >(The Mercedes 123 engine doesn't have to be modified at all. You > >just run it with SVO. If its cold, you add some diesel. > > Some kits are better than others. Some kits are not to be recommended > at all. Some manufacturers claim their kits are suitable for any > diesel in any climate, using WVO, and this is not true. But people > buy these kits anyway, and there are plenty of stories of ruined > pumps. Again, I know of no such stories with biodiesel use. > > And WVO remains a problem. If this valuable waste resource, used by > many or most small-scale biodiesel makers, is to be used in straight > SVO systems it has to be pre-treated, with not much less processing > required than that needed to make biodiesel. And you still won't have > the guaranteed results that biodiesel will give you. > > >In Germany, the producer of the tractors for agriculture are already > >very interested to offer SVO-versions of their diersel engines to > >the farmers (Deutz, John Deere). So in a short future, probably the > >truck engine producers will do the same and later the car engine > >producers. > > Which still leaves the older motors, especially in the Third World. > > >Another important argument for the use of SVO instead of BD is the > >energy input for its production. With BD it is about 1/3, i.e. you > >need about 30% of the energy of 1 litre of BD to produce 1 litre of > >BD (in form of Merthanol or aethanol, chemicals, > >destillation/purification). > > That depends very much on how it's done, and in what setting. > > >For the production of SVO you need only about 15 % (12 % for > >agriculture, 3 % for oil extraction). If you use ecological advanced > >production methods, you can reduce these 12 % considerably. > > Your second sentence applies to on-farm biodiesel production too. > > I have some arguments with Schrimpff's chart as well. > > >Ernst Schrimpff of the Tecnical College of Weihenstephan, Germany, > >listed 8 parameters to compare SVO with BD. Here his list (partly): > > > >see also the attachment or: > > > >http://jatropha.org/p-o-engines/svo-bd-characteristics.htm > > > > Plant oil (SVO) biodiesel (BD) > > > >1) Physical characteristics: > > > >physical density 0,90 - 0,92 0,88 > > > >viscosity 60 - 80 7 - 8 > > > >ignition point > 220 135 > > > >2) Chemical characteristics: > > > >phosphate mg/kg < 15 < 15 > > > >sulphur mg/kg < 10 < 10 > > > >Chem. reaction neutral, very low > > hygroscopic, solvent, fast reaction > > > >3) Production: > > > >principle decentralized small > > central, big industrial units > > The biodiesel entry here is wrong - it should read the same as for > SVO: decentralized small. > > > oil expellers > >chemical compounds needed - > > methanol, potassium hydroxyd > > > >energy input 12 % 29 % > > Questionable. > > >5) Transport / storage no risk small risk > > In the US, no risk. > > >6) Environment > > > >biol. degradation very fast delayed > > The EPA findings contradict this. You can find this information via > the NBB site. > > >danger to water no small > > The EPA findings contradict this too. Biodiesel is used for > remediating oil spills after all. Whereas rapeseed oil can be highly > destructive in a water spill. > > >human toxicity regularly no toxic > > (or small) > > Not so - biodiesel is non-toxic, again according to the EPA. > > >material circuit complete > > difficult to realize > > > >7) Social acceptability > > > >strategy small, decentralized big, central > > Wrong: read "small, decentralized" for biodiesel. > > >logistics simple komplex > > Not so - the many thousands of people with no technical or chemistry > qualifications all over the world who're successfully making their > own biodiesel testify to that. And I reject the argument that they > cannot make a quality product - they do make a quality product. > > >transportation short distances long distances > > Not so: read "short distances" for biodiesel. Should really be short > or zero distance for both. > > >vulnerability small higher > > Based on what? > > >regional income high low > >generation > > Not so - biodiesel is an excellent candidate for micro-regional > production efforts, with great local benefits. > > >8) Costs > > > >fuel production 0,25 - 0,40 > > 0,45 - 0,60 US$ > > > >fuel prices 0,45 - 0,55 > > 0,70 - 0,85 US$ > > Neither of these apply to small-scale local brewers. > > This is perhaps a more useful (and simpler) chart than Schrimpff's: > > Needs processing > Biodiesel Yes > SVO/WVO Less > > Guaranteed trouble-free > Biodiesel Yes > SVO/WVO No > > Engine conversion > Biodiesel No > SVO/WVO Yes > > Cheaper > Biodiesel Sometimes > SVO/WVO Usually > > I've had this argument here before. I'll probably be accused of > favouring biodiesel over SVO. In fact I favour neither, or rather > both. As I said at the start, it depends on the circumstances and > individual preferences. > > There are two pages at Journey to Forever where this choice is > discussed - here: > Three choices > 1. Mixing it > 2. Straight vegetable oil > 3. Biodiesel > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#3choices > > ... and, in somewhat more detail, here, at the page you reffed below > (thanks!): > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html > Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: > Guide to using vegetable oil as diesel fuel > SVO systems > References > SVO vs biodiesel in Europe > European SVO resources > Diesel information > Fats and oils > > I rather agree that SVO will probably be the fuel of the future, but > I see that future as more distant than most SVO proponents tend to > see it. I would say that SVO use is still at an experimental stage > and needs quite a lot of further development. Most of all it needs > long-term tests of various kinds, and, since some motors are more > suitable than others (which is not the case with biodiesel), it needs > quite a lot of different tests. > > So I'm very much in favour of SVO, but I think it's an exaggeration > to pretend that it's a mature, assured technology, as many do. > > In fact I really reject this whole argument about biodiesel vs SVO. > It's a choice, an informed decision to make, but there should not be > any opposition, the two are complementary. There's a lot of > unjustified biodiesel-bashing by the SVO camp in Europe especially, > and I think it's ridiculous - it's ridiculous that there are two such > camps. Perhaps it's because biodiesel is more industrialised there, > as is also happening in the US - but that does NOT exclude small > producers and home-producers. > > Biodiesel and SVO are in the SAME camp, please - it's the fossil-fuel > interests that are in the opposite camp. Good heavens. > > Best wishes > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Osaka, Japan > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > > >Interesting links to this SVO - DB - discussion are: > > > >http://www.vegburner.co.uk > > > >http://www.pflanzenoel-motor.de (German) > > > >http://jatropha.org/p-o-engines/conversion-cars.htm > > > >http://elsbett.com/emotanfr.htm > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html > > > >Kind regards > > > >Reinhard Henning > > > > > > > >-- > >bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany > >Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >internet: www.bagani.de > > > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Biofuel at WebConX > http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -- bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] internet: www.bagani.de ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
