On Dec 09, 2005, at 02:27, Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
> Granted that learning a new grammar is easily than learning new
> tools - but that's also a bit of an argument for saying that
> programmers
> today are lazy...
It's not laziness, it's cost analysis. Reducing the number of formats
is a gain of time, it's a better business decision than endless
multiplication. Furthermore, most of the products I work on are in
the mobile space where we have serious constraints regarding code
size. If I can use an XML parser for all my formats I'm fine, if I
need to throw in a new specialised parser for every single file type
someone decides to put out there I'm very definitely screwed.
>> Additionally, XML integrates smoothly with whatever
>> infrastructure you have in place in your company or just on your
>> computer.
>>
> Wouldn't that depend on the infrastructure? I've got lots of
> customers for whom XML is a 4 letter word...(and many others who
> eat it up).
Yes, it depends on the infrastructure. That being said
infrastructures that can integrate XML are more frequent than those
that can't.
>> Contrast this with Flash or PDF. Have you ever tried to get
>> information out of these formats?
> Every day for the last 8+ years!
>
> I don't have any problems - but then I've spent the time to learn
> the formats and tools for working with them, just as I learned the
> tools for
> XML. Once I learned the formats and tools - they are no longer any
> easier/harder.
I spent time learning tools that ended up not working. There was
always something that would end up going wrong. I might not have
found the right one but all those I tested had limitations, they
almost never support the latest version, they crash, etc.. With XML I
can pick a random parser and it'll Just Work(tm).
>> The specifications may be open, but it's still
>> the case that once you put your data in one of those formats, you've
>> pretty much locked it up for good.
>>
> Huh?
>
> Sounds like you have had some bitter experiences - sorry about
> that.
> But that's your personal experience and NOT a reality of the
> technology...
Bad experience is an understatement. But please, I'd be happy to
investigate existing tools if you would be so kind as to provide
pointers.
My personal experience isn't a reality of the technology, but what is
is that there are far fewer parsers for PDF or SWF out there that are
conforming to the specification, built on quality code that has been
widely used and tested, is open source and runs on at least OSX,
Linux, and Windows (even without asking for all that -- which I get
trivially for XML -- I found none) than for XML. The technical
maturity of the tools and of the market around them cannot be compared.
>> I don't trust MS much about the openness of Metro, but given a choice
>> between that and PDF I will produce Metro documents any day of the
>> week and run away screaming from PDF.
>>
>>
> Simply because it's XML?!?!
Simply because it's simple, and doesn't feel like I have to bang my
head against the wall until I'm barely recognisable to get it to work.
> So you'd pick a technology because it's "cool" or "happening" and
> "easy" over something that is technically superior?
XML is hardly "cool" or "happening" anymore. It's just there. I'll
pick whatever makes the greatest business sense. Metro seems to do
all that I need such a document format to do. If PDF does more, it's
nothing I've noticed that I need (I'll entertain suggestions though).
So *given a choice* between the two, yes, I don't see why I'd pick
the one that's a terrible pain in the ass to use over the one I can
easily handle already.
--
Robin Berjon
Senior Research Scientist
Expway, http://expway.com/
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