Using Apple Developer Forums would cause people to leave swift-evolution (a prediction). I don’t think they offer a good enough experience for quick discussions like mailing lists or Discourse do.
My question is: would we gain more people than we would lose in moving over to something like Discourse? I don’t think a lot of people on here are grasping the high burden mailing lists place on people not familiar with them Brandon > On Aug 3, 2016, at 10:02 PM, Paulo Faria via swift-evolution > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Exactly what I was going to say. Why not use Apple’s forum? > It’s there already. It’s just a matter of using it. Some are saying things > like, the core team should be focused on working on the language, etc. That’s > so obvious that it shouldn’t even be said. This is a fact, but a fact that > has nothing to do with having a good communication medium. It’s just a matter > of decision. The core team could decide we use apple’s forum instead of the > mailing list, boom, done. If we need any extra features from the forum, it’s > not gonna be the core team to deal with. It will be the people that are > already responsible for the apple forum. > >> On Aug 3, 2016, at 6:47 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> I did not have the time to counter all those points but I was going to and >> point that Discourse has a solution for nearly all of those. I would REALLY >> prefer having the mailing-list part of the discussion on Discourse. >> >>> On 03 Aug 2016, at 07:46, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> I hope my replies aren't too curt — I don't want to pick a fight (any more >>> than I did by starting this topic), but to explore how Discourse can serve >>> these use cases. Feel free to re-rebut. >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some >>> advantages for them: >>> >>> 1. Available on every platform. >>> Browsers too. >>> >>> >>> 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on >>> Android.) >>> Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively >>> lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client, >>> there's mailing list mode. >>> >>> >>> 3. Native on every platform. >>> Browsers too. >>> >>> >>> 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations. >>> Browsers too. You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but >>> Mailman is necessarily centralized too. >>> >>> And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even >>> plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often >>> end up looking like huge messes. >>> >>> >>> 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution. >>> Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can >>> solve this. >>> >>> >>> 6. Supports offline reading and drafting. >>> Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email. >>> >>> >>> 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets. >>> Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs. >>> >>> >>> 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving >>> (like Gmane). >>> Discourse has an API >>> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-api-documentation/22706> which can >>> be used for posting. It also supports bot-like plugins >>> <https://github.com/discourse/try-bot/blob/master/plugin.rb> which can >>> respond to various events, although I imagine that requires self-hosting. >>> External bots interested in receiving would probably need to poll RSS, or >>> just make use of mailing list mode as a receive hook. >>> >>> >>> 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering. >>> Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification >>> options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these settings >>> are respected by mailing list mode. >>> >>> >>> 10. Users can privately annotate messages. >>> Discourse has "bookmarks", basically a way of saving individual >>> posts/replies for yourself. Users can also send themselves private messages >>> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/support-multiple-new-topic-drafts/7263/15?u=jtbandes> >>> for note-taking purposes. >>> >>> >>> 11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central >>> administrator. >>> I'm not sure whether Discourse drafts are saved on the server. Moderators >>> are restricted from viewing private messages >>> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/permission-changes-moderators-have-less/12522>. >>> Of course, you can always contact someone via other means. >>> >>> >>> 12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of >>> failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history. >>> This is a fair point. But: >>> - The Git repository of proposals is distributed. >>> - Discourse is as easily backed up as any other computer system: >>> https://meta.discourse.org/t/configure-automatic-backups-for-discourse/14855 >>> >>> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/configure-automatic-backups-for-discourse/14855> >>> - Users who would like a low-fidelity local copy for themselves can enable >>> mailing list mode. >>> - Anyone is free to access/archive publicly accessible content using the >>> APIs. >>> >>> >>> 13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source >>> projects. >>> >>> Is that just because people already know how to use email? Is it because >>> the projects are so long-running that email was the best/only choice when >>> they started? I'm not sure anyone has done real academic research on the >>> use of mailing lists in open source projects. If someone can find any, I'd >>> be interested to read it. >>> >>> >>> I could probably go on, but I'll stop here for now. >>> >>> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with >>> a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other >>> niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these >>> are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of >>> email. >>> >>> This seems like status quo bias to me. It's just as valid to *start* with a >>> great forum system, and build any desirable additional features on top, as >>> it is to start with a mailing list and build additional features on top. >>> (Discourse being open-source is a pretty big advantage in terms of the >>> ability to add features.) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> swift-evolution mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution >>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> swift-evolution mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution > > _______________________________________________ > swift-evolution mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
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