Hi Tom,

Tom Boutell wrote:
> I understand that support for Symfony 1.2 is supposed to end in
> November with the release of Symfony 1.3.
> 
> What practices, if any, in Symfony 1.2 code are expected to be
> incompatible with Symfony 1.3?

All the information about migrating symfony 1.2 to symfony 1.3 projects 
are available on the website in the Upgrade tutorial 
(http://www.symfony-project.org/tutorial/1_3/en/upgrade).

You can also read what is deprecated (but still works) in symfony 1.3 
(http://www.symfony-project.org/tutorial/1_3/en/deprecated).

> 
> I know Symfony 1.3 won't be the huge change that Symfony 1.1/1.2 were.
> But I still don't think it's wise to drop support for practices
> considered valid in 1.2 the moment 1.3 appears.

We don't drop working practices, symfony 1.3 is mainly about adding some 
polish to the whole framework, and needed features like email support. 
And projects running with symfony 1.2 are really easy to upgrade to 
symfony 1.3, thanks to the project:upgrade task. I have already upgraded 
several projects without a single problem. Of course, your mileage might 
vary, but I quite confident that it won't be a huge problem.

> 
> Other long-established open source projects do not do this on such a
> scale. Valid PHP 5.0.x code runs on PHP 5.3.x, with deprecation
> warnings sometimes, but it runs. And 5.2.x is definitely still being
> actively supported after the release of 5.3.x.

PHP is probably the worst piece of software in this regard. Backward 
compatibility can be broken at any time, in any minor version. And as a 
matter of fact, each release of PHP (even minor ones) actually 
introduces regressions, or backward incompatibilities which needs to be 
taken care of in symfony. And sometimes, the changes are radical.

I'm not trying to justify the changes we make in symfony, but frankly, 
the symfony 1.3 version is really about cosmetic changes.

> 
> It is very difficult to make responsible proposals to clients without
> ongoing support for at least the previous minor version series for
> Symfony.

But what keeps you from using symfony 1.2 even after November 2009? If 
your projects work, there is no need to upgrade. Can you tell me what 
kind of support you have on other big frameworks? I think symfony is 
probably one the few to have such a clear policy regarding support. And 
as far as I know, even PHP doesn't have such a clear support policy.

Keep in mind that symfony is an Open-Source project, so everybody can 
contribute and scratch its itch. The core developers and all plugin 
developers are all working for free. Of course, Sensio sponsors the 
framework, of course it dedicates a lot of time and money to it, and of 
it can even provide extended support for all versions for companies 
willing to pay. And do you know how many companies, except Sensio 
customers, signed up for extended support in the last 2 years? None! 
Yep, that's right, not a single one.

> 
> I know Symfony 1.2 wasn't supposed to be an LTS release but the
> reality is that it was the first stable-enough-to-use release of
> Symfony since the end of the 1.0.x series, and people have migrated
> long term projects to it out of necessity. I strongly feel it should
> be supported for at least a year after the release of 1.3.

The fact that symfony 1.2 would have a year of support has been public 
since long before it was released. So people made their decisions 
consciously. And again, symfony 1.3 is not that difficult to upgrade to.

> 
> I also think it is appropriate to fix serious bugs like
> http://trac.symfony-project.org/ticket/6937 in the 1.2 series, making
> features work substantially as advertised unless the only possible fix
> is a backwards incompatible change. But I can live without embedded
> M2M relation forms ever working in 1.2. What I find difficult to live
> without is enough stability that the Symfony releases page doesn't
> frighten clients off.
> 
> BC breaks in a mature system should be a major-version thing (2.0, not
> 1.0), and there should be ongoing support of the previous major
> version for quite a while when they happen.

We have always tried to find a good balance between moving the project 
forward (like adding new features) and keeping backward compatibility. 
With symfony, we try to document every single change we make and for 
most of the changes, and the project:upgrade task mostly does all the 
upgrading work for you.

> 
> I love this framework - please help me sell it to my clients as
> something that will continue to work for at least a year. (:
> 

There were a talk before on an extended community support until June 
2010. Apparently it went nowhere as I have not heard about that since a 
long time. I have no problem supporting symfony 1.2 longer, but people 
who want this extended support should also probably be able to help us.

Fabien

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