I wonder why did you created your own AOP instead of using/forking the one
bundled in SE ?
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On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:30 AM, Victor Berchet <vic...@suumit.com> wrote:
> Dear Alexander:
>
> Ah AOP, you should learn that the Symfony community is a big and beautiful
> family but only our beloved father, Fabien is allowed to introduce new
> concepts.
>
> Don't worry I am kind of joking but nonetheless I think that AOP has quite
> a bad reputation in the community, see [1][2] and the previous messages in
> this topic even if they are older.
>
> So I would like to take the opportunity to talk a little more about AOP.
>
> 1) Why I should not use AOP (common biases)
>
> 1.1) It's way too complex
>
> It's a 3-letter word. DI, the central concept of Sf2 is only a 2-letter,
> it must be complex !
> And the extensive new terminology[3] is there to prove it.
>
> 1.2) It is a way way way too magical paradigm (def: to transform or
> produce by or as if by magic)
>
> Most developers are afraid of AOP because they think it's some kind of
> black magic.
>
> They probably do not know that Sf2 uses a lot of magic, let me quote a
> comment[4] for a recent discussion[1]:
>
> > did you ever wonder what happens when you run your 10 lines controller ?
> >
> > - autoload: generated code,
> > - bootstrap: processed code,
> > - DI usage: generated code,
> > - route matching: generated code,
> > - maybe some security: generated code,
> > - your 10 lines of genuine code,
> > - maybe some ORM: generated code,
> > - URL generation: generated code,
> > - probably some Twig rendering: generated code.
> >
> > But maybe none of this happens because you're using HttpCache...
> generated code !
>
> I could add that by default in the Sf standard edition[5]:
> - Doctrine entities manager are all proxied[6],
> - The security extra bundle also generates proxies[7].
> Yes a lot of devs are already using AOP without even knowing.
>
> To me $this->get('security.context')[8] has more magic than AOP
>
> 1.3) It's hard to debug
>
> Try to debug "$this->get('security.context')" or "$dispatcher->dispatch()"
> that triggers a lazy-loaded service,
> it will be much more complex that debugging AOP which only add a very
> light proxies to your classes.
>
> 1.4) Performance
>
> The generated proxies are very light and the impact on performance is very
> small.
> And you should balance it with the improved maintainability of your code
> which is priceless.
>
> 2) so AOP ?
>
> 2.1) What AOP could do for you ?
>
> "A plugin should be able to add methods, or do something before or after a
> method is executed, without interfering with other plugins[...]"
> This is not a quote from the AOP article on wikipedia, but from the Event
> Dispatcher component documentation[9], the concepts are somehow similar.
>
> With AOP you can execute some code (Advice) after or before a function (at
> Join Points). "Pointcuts" are a way to express at what "Join points" the
> "advice" should be executed.
> This is a very incomplete definition, just to give you a taste of AOP and
> the willing to dig deeper.
>
> 2.1) Is it complex ?
>
> No, even a 14 years old boy[10] can understand it (sorry Alexander, an
> other of my bad jokes - or maybe a compliment actually - but you look damn
> young !).
>
> There is only a handful of concepts, you can try playing with it inside
> your SFSE, go read the docs[11] and start playing.
>
> 3) Any current implementation ?
>
> AOP has first been introduced in Java with AspectJ[12] in 2001.
> Qooxdoo (a great javascript UI library) also supports AOP[13].
>
> Actually a lot of languages[14] supports AOP, it must not be that bad !
>
> but what about PHP ?
> - Typo3 uses it since 2006[15],
> - There is a PHP extension[16] - unstable for now but some work
> ongoing[17],
> - Johannes has a bundle for Sf2[18], which is included in the SE,
> - Alexander has written Go[19].
>
> Well, that's it for today.
> I hope some of you have learned a few things and will give AOP a try.
> Maybe we'll have an AOP component in Sf2 some day.
> If not, not a big deal, I had a great time writing this message anyway !
>
> Victor
>
> [1] https://github.com/symfony/symfony/issues/6139
> [2] https://github.com/symfony/symfony/pull/3296 in some extends
> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect-oriented_programming#Terminology
> [4] https://github.com/symfony/symfony/issues/6139#issuecomment-10841221
> [5] https://github.com/symfony/symfony-standard
> [6] look at your <cache>/jms_diextra/doctrine/
> [7] look at your <cache>/jms_diextra/proxies/
> [8]
> https://picasaweb.google.com/victor.berchet/Sf2?authkey=Gv1sRgCM7A8tqJoc_zywE#slideshow/5816753838641482210
> [9]
> http://symfony.com/doc/current/components/event_dispatcher/introduction.html
> [10]
> https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/e7af3ef8e48a800cd2eedae073104c1a?s=400&d=https://a248.e.akamai.net/assets.github.com%2Fimages%2Fgravatars%2Fgravatar-user-420.png
> [11] http://jmsyst.com/bundles/JMSAopBundle#overview
> [12] http://www.eclipse.org/aspectj/
> [13] http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/apiviewer/#qx.core.Aspect
> [14]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect-oriented_programming#Implementations
> [15] https://twitter.com/robertlemke/status/274532529975984128
> [16] https://github.com/AOP-PHP/AOP
> [17] https://twitter.com/julienPauli/status/274180211132755968
> [18] https://github.com/schmittjoh/JMSAopBundle
> [19] https://github.com/lisachenko/go-aop-php
>
>
> On Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:18:58 PM UTC+1, Alexander Lissachenko
> wrote:
>>
>> I have developed an Go! AOP library for PHP that can be used with any PHP
>> applications and frameworks. It written in plain PHP and doesn't require
>> any PHP extensions, doesn't use evals and expensive function calls, doesn't
>> require changes in the original source code. There is a good support for
>> debugging with XDebug, because auto-generated classes are clean and simple.
>> I'm planning to create a bundle for Symfony2 as alternative for
>> JMSAopBundle after SymfonyCampUA-2012 where I'll have a talk about this
>> library.
>>
>> Here is a link:
>> https://github.com/**lisachenko/go-aop-php<https://github.com/lisachenko/go-aop-php>
>>
>> четверг, 30 сентября 2010 г., 21:42:16 UTC+4 пользователь Yuen-Chi Lian
>> написал:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I searched the entire group but couldn't find many discussions on AOP.
>>>
>>> The SF2 Security discussion (http://bit.ly/sf2sec) got me to wonder
>>> will AOP ever be part of SF2. If yes, are we going to write it all or we
>>> will use the state-of-art AOP solution in PHP (which is?)?
>>>
>>> --
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