On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 11:32:50PM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: > On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > <zbys...@in.waw.pl> wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 01:16:12PM -0700, Greg KH wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 07:11:47AM +0200, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > >> wrote: > >> > On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 04:08:15PM +0200, Hannes Reinecke wrote: > >> > > From: Greg KH <gre...@linuxfoundation.org> > >> > > > >> > > If the kernel is started with "debug", that's for the kernel to switch > >> > > into debug mode. We should rely on a namespace for our options, like > >> > > everything else (with the exception of "quiet"). Some people want to > >> > > only debug the kernel, not systemd, and the opposite as well so make > >> > > everyone happy. > >> > Essentialy, this patch adds systemd.debug as an alias for > >> > systemd.log_level=debug systemd.log_target=console. But it doesn't > >> > really fix anything, just moves the initial problem to a different set > >> > of options. > >> > >> What needs to be "fixed"? > > The fact that kernel in debug + systemd in debug mode mode produced > > enough data to case a failed boot. I didn't follow the details of what > > exactly broke, but at least systemd is (was?) logging a stupid > > assertion. > > > >> > This isn't useful. In addition, it is reasonable to use "debug" to > >> > turn on verbose mode for the kernel + init combo, since in practice > >> > this is what people need to diagnose boot problems. > >> > >> Well, the intersection of people that have a problem with both the > >> kernel and systemd at boot time are probably quite small. As a kernel > >> developer, I tell people to turn on debug all the time to find issues in > >> different drivers and the like. They aren't having any problems with > >> systemd, so any extra messages that it causes, isn't going to be > >> helpful. > > It's a tradeoff, and there are cases where one meaning or the other > > would be more convenient. We can certainly find lots or examples and > > counterexamples... E.g. for me the recent slew of issues with boot > > getting stuck in F20, which seemed to have been caused by a > > combination of kernel, systemd, plymouth, and gdm or kdm issues, was > > quite important and visible. Having 'debug' as one-stop option for > > less experienced users was totally appropriate. > > > > In fact, this setting has been interpreted this way by systemd for a > > while now, and this bug report is the first complaint about that that > > I'm aware of. > > > > The whole issue started with bug #76935: the original reporter was > > seemingly unaware of available kernel commandline options, and his > > comments fairly quickly degenerated to rude personal attacks. It's > > something that one sees quite often: a complaint, a reply how > > requested goals can be achieved and why things are implemented the way > > they are, followed by demands of having it "my way", followed by a fit > > and swearing. Then come "Anonymous Helpers". I really don't see why we > > should deal with this shit and waste time on people who evidently want > > to vent their frustration rather than solve a bug. > > > >> Probably the same thing happens for people who are having problems with > >> systemd. > >> > >> So I thought it would make more sense to have separate options, as the > >> two things really are two different projects / code bases. Having the > >> same flag makes it easy for a small subset of people who would be doing > >> work in both areas, and even then, having to add a simple > >> "systemd.debug" flag to the command line for that doesn't seem to be a > >> big deal. > > We already have systemd.log_level=debug which is well known... And > > usually systemd debugging is most useful together with kernel debugging, > > so the shared interpretation makes the most sense for us. > > Btw, I don't think what makes the most sense to "us" (systemd devs) is > really that important, nor what makes sense to kernel devs. All of us > are more than capable of passing whatever combination of commandline > options necessary to get the effect we want. What we should care about > is people who don't spend all their time debugging kernel/init. I.e., > end-users, support channels, etc. As long as people are not even > arguing from that point of view, I don't think we will get anywhere > with this... Well, the example with F20 boot bugs I cite was exactly about that.
> > Having 'debug' as one-stop option for > > less experienced users was totally appropriate. Zbyszek _______________________________________________ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel