On 19/11/2012 23:19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2012/11/19 Richard Smith<[email protected]>:
Although the tag crop has a page if you look at it's proposal page (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Crop ) it seems clear
the idea was abandoned due to lack of support. So it seems strange that the
page was created in the first place.
There are several reasons why a page would be set up, one being the
tag in use (there are roughly 20000 objects tagged with crop, so it
does make sense to have the page as a definition).
I am fairly new to OSM and from reading the docs I thought that any feature that was documented on the wiki was meant to go though the Proposed Features process. I can however see your point on
creating supporting documentation for already widely used tags although I would argue it can lead to situations where features are documented without wider consideration and as a result are poorer for it.
Looking at the tag on taginfo i notice it has a very uneven distribution. Although it has about 20k uses 96.97% of them are concentrated within 4 values ("yes", "field_cropland", "rice", "WINE_GRAPE"
and "native_pasture") which would lead me to believe they may not have wide user base.
I also think the currently documented term and use of crop is slightly
ambiguous:
* In some cases it is describing the thing growing e.g. "strawberry" but in some cases it is describe the product "sugar", often these are the same thing but not always. The term WINE_GRAPE (2.2k)
seems to be trying to do both.
* The "yes" and "field_cropland" tag is describing there is a crop but not
saying anything about the type of crop.
* The "native_pasture" 1.1k uses value does not really seem to be describing
the product instead it seem to be more of a landuse.
I would argue strongly against the use of the key crop to describe the end *product* of a process e.g. /sugar/, the *produce*//or *crop* or of a feature would be either/Sugar Cane/ or /Sugar Beet/
which would then be processed at a plant to create sugar as the *product* in some other feature. I think this should be clarified.
The Produce key does not seem to have had any proposal written for it at all
and only the produce page exists (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce ) on which no discussion has
taken place.
it was introduced in the orchard proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard
but again, even if there were no proposal the fact that it is in use
justifies the tag definition page.
The original proposal for orchard has no mention of crop. It seems to have been
added as more of an afterthought.
As it happens I currently have under way a proposal for the key "product" (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:product ) which is
similar to produce except it is for the definition of man made output. So
have been thinking about the this subject quite recently.
yes, usage starts to appear also for product:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/product
some of them might be misspellings of "produce" though.
Lets hope not :)
My slant on this would be that the term crop should be discouraged and
instead "produce" be used in all situations where crop currently is. I think
the set of possible key-values for produce would encompass the entire set of
values that the crop key would cover.
OK, fine for me, so basically there is no added meaning for either of those 2?
Just that all values of crop could be a value of produce but not vice-versa
(Ven diagrams please).
I would also be happy to take the info from the crop and its child pages and
rework them into the produce page if no one has any serious aversions to the
idea?
it's fine, but please keep the definition for crop as well, and don't
change meanings of tags in use without discussing it beforehand.
I aim to start a discussion about this. I have created a category page to group everything together for the benefit of confused users in the future (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Output_Types ) and I will shortly start a message thread specifically discussing this tag. Which I will document on it's discussion page.
I might also add that while so far the product tag I am proposing has had
more "for" than "against" votes, the main trust of the against camp has been
the lack of need for 2 tags that essentially mean a features output. I
sympathise with this argument and as such wondered what the community thinks
of creating a tag to describe the output of any feature regardless of the
type of output and we look to depreciate both the produce and product tags
entirely (this does seem a shame seeing how well defined the produce tag has
been according to tag info so far).
I think we should not do this, there is a big difference between a
field where potatoes are grown and a factory where goods are produced
or a kiln where stuff is produced. Growing fruit is sufficiently far
away from man_made production to merit its own key IMHO.
I agree.
cheers,
Martin
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