On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 10:28, Volker Schmidt <vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > According to Wikipedia:en <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus>: > " A *bus* (contracted from *omnibus*,[1] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus#cite_note-EB1911-1> with variants > *multibus*, *motorbus*, *autobus*, etc.) is a road vehicle > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_vehicle> designed to carry many > passengers <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger>." > with the possible subclasses: > " Buses may be used for scheduled bus transport > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_bus_service>, scheduled > coach transport > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coach_(scheduled_transport)>, school > transport <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_transport>, private hire, > or tourism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_bus_service>; promotional > buses may be used for political campaigns > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_campaign> and others are > privately operated for a wide range of purposes, including rock and pop > band tour vehicles" > The official German term is "Kraftomnibus" > <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus> > I had a look at the road sign you mentioned later in your message. I couldn't tell if the symbol meant a bus, a coach, or both. So I ran it through Google Translate. This is what came back for "Kraftomnibus": "buses and coaches." Wikipedia may use a more generic form of English, but most speakers of British English do not interpret "bus" as including "coach." > > Unfortunately in OSM the term "bus" > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Buses>is used for public-transport > buses only: > Unfortunate, perhaps, but not wrong. Because OSM uses British English. And in British English "bus" is usually used to mean scheduled public transport other than coaches (long distance routes may be served by coaches that run to a timetable but we call them coaches, not buses). Even Google Translate recognizes that whilst German has the term Kraftomnibus to cover both buses and coaches, English does not (at least, I can't think of one). Interpreting British English "bus" in OSM as meaning "coach or bus" is, I think, somewhat dubious. " *Buses*, *coaches* and *trolley buses* are forms of public transport > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport> that operate > mainly on the road network. The system consists of bus routes calling at > bus stops and bus stations and have a number of related features." > (also to note that in OSM "coaches" are included in the category PT-bus) > Depends on the type of coach. We have coaches on long-distance routes, they are timetabled, public transport, but carry luggage, are designed for comfort rather than mass transit, and typically have just one stop in any given town or city. Local regulations for a particular road could permit buses but exclude that type of coach. Coaches may have a dedicated stop or share it with local bus services. We also have coaches that are irregular, taking people to holiday destinations or on day trips. The comments in the preceding paragraph also apply to these, except there are usually only two stops, at the termini. And (answering to another question somewhere in this discussion) there are > cases where we need in OSM an access tag for these generic buses, for > example to map the access restriction announced by this road sign > <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildtafel_der_Verkehrszeichen_in_der_Bundesrepublik_Deutschland_seit_2017#/media/Datei:Zeichen_257-54_-_Verbot_f%C3%BCr_Kraftomnibusse,_StVO_2017.svg> > . > This is the real problem. We use "bus" in the British English sense for public transport (marking bus stops as per PTv0/1/2). But some infer that bus=yes means "bus/coach" for access. Not only is that confusing, not only is it reading more into British English "bus" than there is, but it may be factually wrong: local regulations for a given road may permit buses but prohibit coaches. We could have a generic "bus-shaped vehicle carrying passengers" tag, for access. I think it is going to be cleaner to add coach=yes so we can have access=no + bus=yes + coach=yes rather than have access=no + bus_and_coach=yes and then, one day, find out we have a rare case of a road where coaches are permitted but buses are not. Having bus=yes and coach=yes tags allows us to map access by one, the other, both, or neither. Also I suspect that many existing bus=yes tags were added with no thought as to whether or not coaches were permitted, despite those whose language has a word meaning "buses and coaches" inferring that the British English word "bus" means the same thing. Given the orginal "sin" of wrongly limiting the term "bus" to > public-transport buses in OSM > Or is that the original sin of assuming the British English term has the same meaning as the German one? (which I believe cannot be undone), > I agree. Not feasible. > we need to sort this out by creating other terms. > I have no proposal for this, but the original proposal of defining > positions where non-PT buses load/unload passengers is basically a good one. > The real problem is to properly define different classes of > mulit-seated-motor-vehicles-with-more-than-8-seats, and then revisit the > existing tags accordingly. > Yes. For access, I think coach=yes fixes the problem. For stopping positions, there are at least two cases: a dedicated stopping place for coaches, not used by buses; and a bus stop also used by coaches. Which was part of the OP's problem. But that is complicated by the type of coach: long-distance timetabled coaches could (and probably should) be rendered the same as ordinary bus stops. But stops for coaches taking people to holiday destinations or on day tours should not. Rendering those the same as ordinary bus stops means that if your car breaks down and you wait at a nearby stop it might be one where the next holiday coach is in 3 months. I've just convinced myself we need to differentiate between timetabled, long-distance coaches and the other kind. Because regular, timetabled, long-distance coaches are, in many ways, just comfortable buses that can carry luggage (but may have different access rights on some roads). I am sure when we look closer at different countries we detect all kinds of > hybrids. > One, which I know first hand, is an on-demand night-bus system (in > Padova, Italy) > <http://www.padovanet.it/notizia/20190318/night-bus-nuovo-servizio-di-autobus-notturno-chiamata> > that is operated by the company that runs the city's scheduled day-time > PT-bus lines. This night-time on-demand service has no fixed routes but > allows pick-up/set-down of passengers only at the stop locations of the > scheduled service. > Here we have a couple of operators where you phone up at least a day beforehand and arrange to be picked up/set down where you specify (as long as it's safe). So a bit like your example, except not limited to regular stop locations. Mine are unmappable. Yours could probably be mapped, but I don't have a good suggestion as to how, other than a relation of some kind). -- Paul
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