On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 5:49 PM Andrew Harvey <andrew.harv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...] > > bicycle= as an access tag should refer to any class of bicycles by > default. Today I was walking a track which had a no bicycles sign, meaning > all types of bikes are disallowed. Conversely bicycle=yes just means that > bicycles are legally/physically allowed, it does not indicate suitability > by a specific type of bicycle. I don't think I've ever seen signage which > says no mountain bikes but you can use a road bike, or vice versa. If there > is then we should use sub bicycle access tags like road_bike=, mtb=, bmx= > etc. You could have a path which is clearly a mountain bike track but > officially bicycles are not allowed. So based on this we can't use these > kinds of access tags to define the type of path they must be kept > independent. > Agreed, land managers don't define different access by type of bicycle, because at the end of the day what is a MTB, I had a MTB without suspension when I was a kid so it's not suspension, a MTB is just an advertised bicycle with heaps of features which has continued to change heaps in the last 15 years with technology, even today the range of features and price is amazing; eMTB is another category that is different per region/country whether land managers treat them as a bicycle or motorbike based on their power output. In my experience of riders I've met, the trails you can successfully ride are much more determined by your skills and ability than the bicycle you are on. Not all mountain bike tracks are mtb=designated. Many paths are built for > and used mostly by mountain bikes, key giveaways are jumps, corner banks > and other technical features, but not officially signposted or marked for > use by mountain bikes. Conversely the track could be signposted for use by > mountain bikes but not actually be a mountain bike track, eg. it could be > highway=track which is not a mountain bike track, but indicated as a way > for use by mountain bikes so mtb=designated. > > So I'm proposing the access tags bicycle= refer to any/all bicycles. mtb= > become an access tag (mtb=designated for signposted mountain bike). > path=mtb become a tag to say the path on the ground here is designed=mostly > used for mountain biking. > Around here 5 years ago there were few MTB trails actually signposted, they had existed for many years but only as the parks got more use had land managers spent money to signpost the trails. When would I use mtb=designated when land managers just signpost for bicycle=yes,foot=yes,horse=no? I feel this is better than a new highway=singletrack tag since renderers, > routers, etc can still interpret the path without making changes. If we > move to a new tag, these tracks will disappear from routers and maps > overnight. > Agreed, it wouldn't just disappear from renderers but it breaks the long time documented scheme. My suggestion was playing devil's advocate because I am still not sure what we can't do with the current tags. All other tags like surface, smoothness, mtb:scale, route=mtb still apply. > leisure=track would still apply to short loop tracks like a BMX pump track > or a velodrome, but not to longer A to B tracks. > > Thoughts? I can help work on the wiki proposal for these tag changes (mtb= > as an access tag and path=mtb) but keen to hear feedback here first. > *Summary:* - When would/could I use the proposed mtb= access tag if land managers only define bicycle=, and what is a MTB (as mentioned above)? - Your proposed path=mtb would be a specialisation of highway=path (like service=parking_aisle) which seems odd and against highway=path being a non-specific path? Objectively how would I know what is a MTB path, many signposted IMBA green trails don't have berms and rollovers? What does this tag provide that just adding mtb:scale=* doesn't already? I think general purpose routers should ignore highway=path if they don't want to understand path grading, the same can be said for highway=track. Personally I've only added mtb:scale:imba=* here from signposted trails, just never thought adding mtb:scale=* was helping anyone so didn't put in the effort, but could now. Thanks -- Jono
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