It is coming through Philip, but I think you've replied to a digest message and so it's been grouped/threaded differently.
I think what you've said is really useful, and i hope everyone in the main thread has read it :) On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 15:54, Philip Mallis <phi...@philipmallis.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > > > (not sure why my previous message didn’t come through). > > > > I’m a mapper and a transport planner who deals a lot with this issue in my > work. > > > > To clarify, VicPol are not the authority on what is or isn’t permitted on > a path. What is signed ‘on the ground’ and in the legislation (Victorian > Road Rules and Road Management Act) is what counts. Moreover, there are > small legal complexities as to what is or isn’t legally considered a > ‘bicycle lane’ or ‘shared user path’ that goes into detail beyond OSM > mapping (e.g. the placement and types of signs, linemarking types, etc.). > > > > A blanket ‘bicycle=no’ tag on footpaths by default would not work for many > of the reasons already stated in this discussion. For one, there are > several exceptions to this rule as already outlined by others. > > > > Moreover, it is often not immediately obvious that a ‘footpath’ is a > designated shared user or bicycle only path – especially from aerial or > streetside imagery. Signs designating shared paths are sometimes damaged > and forgotten to be replaced, linemarkings fade or any number of other > reasons, while that path may still be legally designated as use permitted > by people on bikes. > > > > In almost all cases, it is the local council who determine what is or > isn’t a shared user or other off-road path. Under the Road Management Act, > councils are responsible for all pathways in road reserves, regardless of > whether the carriageway itself is a state arterial or local road. Most > parks and reserves are also under the jurisdiction of local councils. > > > > As a result, I’d be inclined to leave the status quo of leaving > ‘bicycle=*’ as blank unless there is a specific (legal) sign or linemarking > stating otherwise (one way or the other). > > > > One further complication is that sometimes shared paths are built in new > estates, outlined in masterplans and legally designated by local councils > when they take over care & management of the street network, but signage > and linemarking is sometimes just forgotten. In these cases, I’d be > checking with local councils and/or VicMap to confirm their status, > regardless of what is or isn’t signed or linemarked. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Philip > > > > *From: *talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org > *Sent: *Monday, 4 October 2021 12:07 PM > *To: *talk-au@openstreetmap.org > *Subject: *Talk-au Digest, Vol 172, Issue 8 > > > > Send Talk-au mailing list submissions to > > talk-au@openstreetmap.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > talk-au-ow...@openstreetmap.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Talk-au digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Cycling on Victorian paths (Graeme Fitzpatrick) > > 2. Re: Cycling on Victorian paths (Philip Mallis) > > 3. Re: Cycling on Victorian paths (Andy Townsend) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:52:02 +1000 > > From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefi...@gmail.com> > > To: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> > > Cc: OSM-Au <talk-au@openstreetmap.org> > > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths > > Message-ID: > > < > cap4zaxpyaat+e-erehxqxoeqa4rmfrzsxnvd856noemhces...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > Thanks for that, Andy. > > > > In that case, the definitions in iD probably need to be updated / > > changed, as when you're mapping any form of highway=*, the "Allowed > > Access" options & explanations include designated: "Access allowed > > according to signs or specific local laws". > > > > Thanks > > > > Graeme > > > > Thanks > > > > Graeme > > > > > > On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 at 19:40, Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On 03/10/2021 04:00, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I would think it should be bicycle=designated, which means that signage > & local laws would then apply? > > > > > > (on the very narrow question of what "bicycle=designated" means in OSM) > > > > > > "<transport mode>=designated" is a somewhat confusingly named tag - it > sounds like it ought to mean what you say above, but in practice the > definition at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Ddesignated > is actually: > > > > > > "indicates that a route has been specially designated (typically by a > government) for use by a particular mode (or modes) of transport" > > > > > > It's a way of saying "you might have a right to get from A to B via X, Y > or Z, but the route via X has been specifically constructed for your mode > of transport so you should go that way". > > > > > > An example I've added myself is at > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/894921545#map=17/53.36085/-1.25653 near > Sheffield in the UK - there's a legal right of foot access directly across > the road between the two kissing gates shown in OSM on the left of that > view, but there's a sign directing foot traffic east to the roundabout > where it's safer to cross the road, before walking back along the other > carriageway of the road. > > > > > > In OSM "foot=designated" is mostly used to indicate that a > "highway=path" should be treated like a highway=footway for foot traffic, > and bicycle=designated that a a "highway=path" should be treated like a > highway=cycleway for bicycle traffic. It doesn't mean "legal access rules > for this mode are not a simple yes or no and you should consult local > signage and local laws". > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Talk-au mailing list > > > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:16:34 +1100 > > From: Philip Mallis <phi...@philipmallis.com> > > To: "talk-au@openstreetmap.org" <talk-au@openstreetmap.org> > > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths > > Message-ID: <1b285132-2b85-44be-9a41-627a974c8...@hxcore.ol> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20211004/1a04f427/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 02:05:49 +0100 > > From: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> > > To: Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefi...@gmail.com> > > Cc: OSM-Au <talk-au@openstreetmap.org> > > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths > > Message-ID: <2b591862-2793-76ef-72f8-0df99357c...@gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > > > > On 03/10/2021 22:52, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > In that case, the definitions in iD probably need to be updated / > > > changed, as when you're mapping any form of highway=*, the "Allowed > > > Access" options & explanations include designated: "Access allowed > > > according to signs or specific local laws". > > > > Perhaps raise that at https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues ? > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-au mailing list > > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Talk-au Digest, Vol 172, Issue 8 > > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au >
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