Was going to mention a couple of days ago - it worked!!! :-) Was able to successfully create my lake with an island in it & have also added islands to other lakes already mapped as MP :sunglasses" :-)
So thanks everybody for your help! :-) Another question though, thanks. I'm seeing some relations marked in JOSM as "incomplete": https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/9728292#map=14/-28.1002/153.4320 appears OK here, but not in JOSM? How do you fix something like that? Thanks Graeme On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 17:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[email protected]> wrote: > LOL! > > Go to bed! > > Talk more tmw. > > Thanks > > Graeme > > > On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 15:42, stevea <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thanks for the details: you are up-to-date w.r.t. JOSM and Java, the >> Windows version is OK, but there does exist Windows 11 now, that upgrade is >> "up to you." Windows 10 is still OK and if it's working fine, you can keep >> using it. >> >> The reason you think iD is friendlier is because you've gotten accustomed >> to it. Old dogs CAN learn new tricks! The thing to think about is that iD >> does a lot of "hiding" of things from you to make a candy-sweet >> user-interface experience, whereas JOSM expects you to know about some >> basics (start on the bottom rung of the ladder, but, hey, we all do!) and >> then you simply have to climb. But, the pace at which you do is all up to >> you, so there is no pressure. There might be some wrinkled brow and >> question marks along the way, but learning a new thing is like learning any >> new thing. You study something that explains it in a manner that makes >> sense to you, to toot around with it until you're comfortable with it >> (perhaps with some sour notes while tooting, that's OK), then it is yours >> forever. >> >> Some basics: OSM is data. OSM's data structures are of four basic types >> called nodes, ways, closed ways (polygons) and relations. The first two >> are quite basic (points and directional line segments), the third is simply >> a way that "goes back and touches itself back at the beginning" and >> relations are what's the hard nut to crack. Any of these four types can >> (and should...MUST, really) have at least one tag, a key=value pair. For >> relations, there are a variety of different flavors of tags to make >> different flavors of relation types (like routes, multipolygons, >> boundaries...) AND, very importantly, RELATIONS HAVE MEMBERS. At least >> one, usually many more than one. Members are the "collection of things" >> that make up the relation. For a multipolygon, this is the collection of >> polygons. For a route, the segments of connected ways that make up the >> route. For a boundary, the ways (or closed ways — polygons) that make up >> the boundary. And so on. >> >> For a multipolygon relation, there are something called "role tags." >> Let's start simple: a building with a single courtyard that isn't the >> building. You'd have a polygon representing the building and a polygon >> INSIDE the building polygon representing the courtyard. (So, two >> MEMBERS). Additionally, on a multipolygon, the BUILDING gets a "role tag" >> with value "outer" and the courtyard gets a "role tag" with value "inner." >> This tells OSM "an outer building has an inner courtyard" like this: >> polygon tagged building=yes is a member of the multipolygon, and it gets >> role tag of outer; polygon tagged courtyard=yes (I'm making that up) is >> another member of the multipolygon , and it gets role tag of inner. Done. >> >> Let's make this. After you did your "Create Multipolygon," you likely >> have (off to the right in your "panes" JOSM displays) a pane called >> "Relations: 1" (because you just created 1 relation and this is a new JOSM >> session). If you don't, the "pane panel" has little drop-down triangles >> that allow you to "turn on and off" which panes you want displayed in the >> "pane panel" (again, this panel toggles on and off easily by repeatedly >> clicking the Tab key, so you can see what I'm talking about). Walk down >> the "pane panel" and click these "disclosure triangles" on and off until >> you have a useful set of panes in this panel: Layers, Tags, Selection(s) >> abbreviated Sel., Relations...you might see or want others, like Command >> Stack, Author, Conflict, Validation Results, Map Paint Styles...but they're >> not germane right now. In the Rel pane, single-click your new relation (it >> should be the only one there, as you haven't downloaded anything, have >> you?) and notice there are three buttons below it in this pane: Select, >> Search and History. You could click Select (after a single-click of the >> relation) or you could double-click the relation. This brings up the >> relation window I described before: top half, and a bottom-left and >> bottom-right (with buttons along the lower-left and lower-middle). There >> are buttons along the left of the top part, but I never use them, you might >> not need to, either. In the case of a multipolygon relation, there needs >> to be a tag of type=multipolygon. That's already been done for you by the >> "Create Multipolygon" menu item, so it's already there >> >> Now, with that relation window open, notice that in the lower-left, there >> are the two members that you selected to "make" this multipolygon (with the >> menu command "Create Multipolygon" after you selected the polygons that you >> wanted to make the multipolygon out of). See them? You can also see that >> in the top half of this relation editing window is "type" on the left side >> (the key) "multipolygon" (the value of the key, making up a whole >> type=multipolygon tag). So far, so good. What JOSM (likely) doesn't know, >> is which one of the polygons is outer (the "whole") and which one is inner >> (the "hole!"). So, notice that at the top of the lower-left is "Role." >> Double-click (selecting it) the one-of-two polygons which is the outer (it >> "lights up" to show you it is selected), then single-click off to its left, >> right under "Role." Type the word "outer" (return). Do the same thing to >> the other one (select, click to left...) except this time, type the word >> "inner" (return). Now, click the OK button at the bottom of the relation >> editor window, and you've just created a real multipolygon! >> >> I might be forgetting something. But to really add real data to OSM, >> you'd: >> >> 1) Open JOSM. You get the "welcome" screen, no map. Huh? Yeah, keep >> reading... >> 2) Use the green down-arrow to select a chunk of map (not too large) to >> download. >> 3) Start drawing your polygons into "the real fabric of the map," >> knowing that you haven't uploaded yet, but you will when all looks OK. >> 4) After polygons are drawn, you can either select them and choose >> Create Multipolygon menu item, or create a new polygon from scratch, then >> select the polygons and add them one-by-one. We didn't go through this, it >> takes a bit of getting used to and is a bit hard to describe in email, >> though the web-based tutorial I pointed you to (it isn't video, it is >> text-on-web-pages) is pretty good. When your multipolygon relation (as >> described above) is to your liking: >> A) must have type=multipolygon tag in the "upper pane" of the >> relation editing window, >> B) must have at least two polygons, >> C) each polygon must have the proper role tag >> then you can >> 5) Press OK at the bottom of the relation editing window. >> >> Now, your edit is "in the buffer" for your examination, verification (I >> highly recommend a plug-in called Validator...another topic...you'll get >> there) or further editing. Then, you must upload to the great OSM server >> in the sky! You do this with the green UP arrow, where you assign a >> changeset comment and all that. >> >> Hooray! >> >> So, as your "lake with an island" email just rolled in, I'd say that the >> lake polygon likely gets tagged outer, the island polygon gets tagged inner >> and Bob's your uncle. But actually, a lake in an island isn't really a >> multipolygon, to the best of my knowledge. MPs are usually for thing like >> "this whole vast area is tagged natural=wood, but there is this little >> meadow inside of it which is natural=grassland. OK, tag the "big outer" >> with natural=wood, tag the "little inner" with natural=grassland, make a MP >> with these two members, put the role tag outer on the big wood, put the >> role tag inner on the little meadow, make sure there is at least >> "type=multipolygon" in the top "tags area" of the relation editing window, >> and now you've made a "big wood with a little meadow" (and it WILL render >> properly!) >> >> Hope that helps, but I'm getting ready for bed, being 18 hours behind you >> (it's getting on 11 PM Wed. night here in California). >> >> G'day, good luck, check out that tutorial, even consider skipping right >> to the multipolygon section of it. >> >> Steve >> >> > On Mar 30, 2022, at 10:00 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > G'day Steve >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > First off, the laptop. This one is actually pretty good, as it was only >> brand new last November! >> > >> > Dell Inspiron 5510, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Home Ver 21H2. >> > >> > & I'm running JOSM Version 18387, Java Version 17.0.2 >> > >> > (& I hope that means a lot more to you than it does to me! To quote the >> man "I don't know what makes 'em work, I just use 'em") >> > >> > I've been playing with it for a few weeks & I'm pretty happy with most >> of the basics (although I still think iD is a lot friendlier!), & have got >> a couple of multi's to work, but I don't know how as I can't do it again! >> > >> > I'm playing with a test at the moment, have drawn the outer & inner, >> selected them both, then created the multipolygon. >> > >> > Over at the right, I've got Tags: 1 / Memberships: 0 >> > Relations/Multipoygon ... >> > type=multipolygon >> > >> > Sel.: Rel.: 1 / Ways:0 / Nodes:0 >> > multipolygon (0. 2 members) >> > >> > Relations: >> > multipolygon (0. 2 members) >> > >> > Ok, what next? >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Graeme >> > >> > >> > On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 13:50, stevea <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Hi Graeme: >> > >> > Off-list. First, it's technically impossible to run JOSM without Java >> being installed: the J in JOSM stands for Java. It simply won't run >> without it. So if you ARE running JOSM, you have SOME version of Java >> installed. >> > >> > Next, let's assure some basics: that you've got the necessary hardware >> and software. What version of Windows, what version of Java? If you don't >> know you are running "Version 8, Update 321" then use this link: >> > >> > https://www.java.com/download/ie_manual.jsp >> > >> > to go get it. It's a very brief (2+ MB) download that shouldn't take >> more than a few seconds, although the associated installation process >> (initial or to update) will be longer, but no more than a minute or three >> (at most). Unless you are on "wheezy old hardware," and that may be the >> case, given how hard you seem to disparage that poor, old laptop of yours! >> > >> > Those are basics you might do with me anyway. But even though that >> might seem superfluous, after choosing "Create Multipolygon," you'll note >> in the right-side of "panes," — press the Tab key to see these appear and >> disappear — (the one that shows Sel, Rel, Ways, Nodes with numbers after >> some of them), a new item has appeared: your multipolygon (mp). Adding >> tags is done in the "Tags/memberships" pane. You can add a tag (or tags) >> to the whole of a mp there (make sure it's selected first, then use the + >> key to add a new tag/key-value pair). And you'll need to add members to an >> mp with the "relation editor," which is get-at-able by double-clicking the >> mp in the "Relations" pane. >> > >> > The resulting "mp editor" dialog (a new window) has three panes: upper >> is the key-value pairs that make up the tags on the whole mp. Lower-left >> are the members of the mp (empty for now, if you double-clicked the new, >> empty one you just created) and lower-right is the "current selection." >> The buttons in between lower-left and lower-right move between the >> selection and the memberships. The buttons off to the far left rearrange, >> delete, sort and download (from the server, if you've only got "part" of an >> mp, where you haven't the entire membership, but only SOME members) the >> members. You'll need to "confirm your changes" to the mp you've edited >> (tags or its members or both) with the OK button at the bottom of the mp >> editor dialog window. >> > >> > That's a very quick primer, there are good video tutorials (try >> https://learnosm.org/en/josm/start-josm), but this is a pretty steep >> curve. Give yourself an entire weekend (a couple of days) to get the >> basics of JOSM down: creating nodes and ways, moving them around, >> splitting them, selecting them, turning them into closed ways to form a >> polygon, uploading your changes with the green up-arrow...those sorts of >> basics you may be familiar with from iD or other simpler editors, THEN get >> into relations, as they are a more advanced animal than simple nodes and >> ways. But I agree that using JOSM for its supreme relation editor is THE >> way to go to best edit relations. >> > >> > I'm here for you, man! >> > >> > Steve >> > >> > > On Mar 30, 2022, at 8:18 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > > I meant to add that I can start OK: >> > > Draw the outer box, >> > > draw the inner box, >> > > select them both, >> > > click on "Create multipolygon" ... >> > > but that's where I hit trouble! >> > > >> > > How do you add tags etc? >> > > >> > > Thanks >> > > >> > > Graeme >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 13:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> > > Does anybody know of a simple, straight-forward, how-to for creating >> multipolygons using JOSM? >> > > >> > > If possible, I'd prefer a document rather than video, but beggars >> can't be choosers! >> > > >> > > I've already found a couple, but they either don't explain how-to, or >> I get different results when I do what they say? >> > > >> > > That "could" be because I'm using JOSM for Windows? (Have to as no >> Java on my laptop!) >> > > >> > > Thanks >> > > >> > > Graeme >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Talk-au mailing list >> > > [email protected] >> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au >> > >> >>
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