Hi Adam, Richard, talk-ca list. cc: [email protected], Tim Hoskin, National Trails Coordinator for TCT, Jane Craig, Communications Coordinator for TCT, and Margaret Mofford, Secretary, Trans Canada Trail
*** On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Adam Glauser <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was cleaning up some areas where the TCT shares its path with roads > and other existing trails (here http://osm.org/go/ZXnePd73--, if you are > interested). > > It appears that there used to be a relation, which was part of a mass > deletion recently (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/146837). > Should this relation be resurrected, a new one created, or something else? Hey, Sam! Adam found something with our fingerprints on it! ;-) Adam, the history here http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/146837/history shows that this was deleted deliberately by andrzej as the relation had no members. The discussion andrzej referenced in his delete comment (How very polite, by the way!) asked about the validity of relations or ways with no members as a data quality / validity question. So I think andrzej deletion should stand for now. Earlier in the history Sam (acrosscanadatrails) says I asked him to remove his earlier work. I don't recall the details of the conversation, but I probably did. That Adam found part of the relation in Ontario. Sam's earlier additions in that history discussed trail portions in BC. Sam do you recall the details? Should this relation be replaced, without members or 'fixed' with members added? Best regards, Richard > _______________________________________________ > Talk-ca mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > **** Ya, just list that local trail with it's local name, as a relation but as a local or regional route. You should see physical signs saying "Laurel Trail" and/or 'Iron Horse Trail'. Just map these 2 trails as 'routes' and if they are cycle-able, the preference is to list it as a cycle-route, in that area of the country. IMO. ... if the Trail is a 'Route' then a 'route' can go on any surface type. But the actual gravel/paved segments should be labeled as they physically are (and physically named) on the ground. No 'Trans Canada Trail' relation is needed. (until the copyright is fixed, see MEGA detail below). In Capital Region District (Victoria) the Galloping Goose is an excellent example of how to map a regional route. (note that surface is not defined, because it is mixed) http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/19895 *** Thanks Adam for pointing that out. In short, I fixed up the wiki to show about Trans Canada Trail http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Trans_Canada_Trail **** In long, unfortunately this week is the Trans Canada Trail AGM, where i am unable to attend in person. Where my aim was to address this VERY issue. And unfortunately, (for some reason) Tim Hoskin was unable (and still is) to email me directly. (He probably did email me, but it didn't go through at his end. Actually back in May he probably emailed me, but it didn't go through. Leaving me to the assumption that my email was not received. It would have helped a great deal to have heard from him at that time, then i would have made plans to actually go to Ottawa, as i would have a 'fuller' understanding of the Trans Canada Trail and its history, where they plan on being in the future. I do have a nice LONG letter that i am thinking of sending to the Trans Canada Trail, along with my proxy vote (and voting 'no'), as i feel that the Trans Canada Trail is not providing alternate routes, and has no plans on listing the bi-pass route and temporary alternates, and is not technically navigable for 1 user, which is not what the original intention of the Trans Canada Trail is. (from my understanding). ... but i am hesitant to send it along, as i don't know if it will make a difference, and instead might just frustrate people more than I already have. Basically, what it is, is that i have a hard time understanding what this "Trans Canada Trail" actually IS. I cannot say that it is a "bicycle route", nor can i say that it is a "hiking route" nor is it a "snowmobile route", or a "equestrian route" as it is in fact a 'Greenway'. (so in short, listing it as a 'NCN' would not be correct) Here is Charles-Andre's answer to me. (which i needed clarification on), and i attached my original email to. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Charles-Andre Roy <[email protected]> Date: Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:08 AM Subject: RE: Across Canada Trails - or TCT 'route' across Canada To: Sam Vekemans <[email protected]> Hi again Sam, For your question about our vision for the trail is quite simple. We are focusing on multi-purpose greenway trail that support some combination of walking/hiking, cycling, horseback riding, skiing, canoe and snowmobiling wherever possible and appropriate. Our objective is to link all across Canada from coast to coast to coast. Now, how do we do it? We don't do 1 single track for hiking, 1 single track for cycling, 1 single track for canoe. It will take much more time than it's taking right now. It's why we are linking communities together instead of linking trail uses. It was like that since the beginning. Of course, if we could have 1 track for each use, it will be awesome. Hope it answers you question Have a nice day Charles-André Roy sentier Transcanadien - Trans Canada Trail Coordonnateur en SIG GIS Coordinator 514-485-4345 1-800-465-3636 Ext. 4345 Naviguez le sentier - Navigate the Trail www.tctrail.ca/tlocator -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sam Vekemans Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 16:06 To: Charles-Andre Roy; Info; Jane Craig; Tim Hoskin Subject: Across Canada Trails - or TCT 'route' across Canada Hi Trans Canada Trail, I'm just going over all of the pdf maps again. I realize that you (most likely; probably; maybe?) already have plans on creating a mapbook, right? Im still lost on your vision for the trail. Will it be a 'single continious greenway' or a network of navigatable routes'? Where the intended purpose is just to connect communities, and not connect trail uses? Im studing the map, and i cant see how 1 recreational type can make use of the full trail, when there is only 1 signed route with all mixed surface types. Because i am able to use openstreetmap, i can list ALL of the route (or routes) with the help of hundreds of volunteers on EVERY section of the trail. -to make it fully usable. (a distinct route for each trail user) So i need to know what the official word is, then i will know if i can list the routes as 'Across Canada Trails - hiking; mtb;road bike;horse;atv route' or 'Temporary Trans Canada Trail - hiking route;mtb;roadbike;horse;atv'. Then i can move forward in my efforts for an 'official' proposal. I would like to be able to publish your 'official statement' on my website & on the 3rd page of my book. I look forward to hearing from you soon, As a curtesy, im still waiting to hear from you before i turn to Canadian Trails Federation & National Trails Coalition and present my project. (if its not already in plans for a national trail network -were im not in the 'loop' as they dont know i can help them). As well i am waiting to contact other groups. -cause i dont want to be undermining efforts of TCT. Thanks, Sam Vekemans Across Canada Trails ***** So as you can read, the message is still rather 'vague', since the TCT is just a 'trail-link' regardless of it's actual usage. The implications of this are IMMINENCE because if someone wanted to Bike Across Canada, say with an expedition touring/trekking bike. .. They simply cannot. By definition, this is not what the Trans Canada Trail is. Nor is it what the Trans Canada Trail offers. I, on the other hand, have something to offer to these people who want to actually navigate the Trans Canada Trail, by each type of recreation. Since i understand that cyclist cant take the full route, and many segments are not complete. What i can offer is a way to 'COMPLETE' this national trail, so that it is usable by all recreations, where people know where to go. I offer a GPS Guide which shows exactly what routes to take for each type of recreation. (i produced the 1st version of it with my 'unofficial Trans Canada Trail GPS Map http://mapcenter2.cgpsmapper.com/mapview.php?id=1882) However, i decided that if i were to continue, it might be ill-advised, because my routing of the "Across Canada Trails", (humbly speaking), could technically become more popular than the Trans Canada Trail. The Website, and the books only cover a small portion of what the "Across Canada Trails" will cover. (BTW, i have had over 53,000 downloads of the map, even as a simple draft as it is) Since i still don't have a direct answer, and don't know if the Trans Canada Trail has any plans in the future to actually become usable, rather, as 'Routes' rather than trying to become an actual 'trail'. As we all know that it's really basic concept (sorry to be blunt) When you want to make a Trail Across Canada, what you need to start with is a 'temporary alternate route' where this route is physically signed, and listed as 'only temporary' until a dirt path, gravel trail, or paved cycleway can be re-directed to the official route. However, NO this cannot happen. That is because the 'official routing' remains copyrighted and is actually under the jurisdiction of each of the provinces to decide what this routing will be. ... and not the way that the TCT are going about it. ******* So here I am, i have this great idea, where i can actually go around and help out the Trans Canada Trail so then these 'temporary alternate routes' can become physically signed. so then people will actually be able to navigate the trail. Yet, i still hear no response from the Trans Canada Trail. Instead, i hear that they are planning on creating their own (independent track-sharing website, much like bikemap.net) yet it will only hold Trans Canada Trail segments. Designed as a portal for just the Trans Canada Trail. (subcontracted? I think they have been had, since most everything out there is available for free. ... Similarly to why people pay for MS Office when OpenOffice is out there for free). However, because the Trans Canada Trail is actually just the 2nd name of each local trail, these local trails will become listed on OpenStreetMap, as local cycling routes or local hiking routes anyway. And these tracks will be (and many are already available on bikemap.net and the other sites. Just that the name 'Trans Canada Trail' is not mentioned that much. (due to it's inconsistency of purpose) .... So I can (and have) sent in my resume, and offered to help, as they can leverage this power of OpenStreetMap, and if they don't want to use OpenStreetMap, that's fine too, as i can leverage this power, and pull the GPS Tracks from OSM, and teach people how to update OSM to list their local routes. AND I offered to offer my help, where i can actually be a TCT- official representative, and create a user profile on all these Track-sharing websites, where these segments of Trans Canada Trail, can actually be published, with a link back to the tctrail.ca website page of that trail piece. ... thus, solving the problem of people not knowing where this trail is. And so, ... im still waiting to hear back. (probably, because of my open frustration) they don't want to hire me, :-) ... lol, i can see why. :-) That's fine. So what i offer as a way to help is that I can go ahead and market my 'Across Canada Trails' paved route across Canada. Where this route gets listed as the 'Proposed status' and the material that gets printed, would just-so-happen, to show dirt-trails and gravel trails which are usable as day-trip routes and loop-routes. .... Anyway, here's the official response with regards to 'OpenStreetMap'. Unfortunately, this was based on an internal discussion, where know one was present who actually understood what OpenStreetMap actually is. (my guess is that they thought that it was my own independent project, and didn't look at the website in detail). (this was AFTER meeting Deborah Apps in person, and talking to Charles-Andre on the phone) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Charles-Andre Roy <[email protected]> Date: Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:56 AM Subject: GIS Data Internal Review To: Sam Vekemans <[email protected]> Hi Sam, Hope everything is going well on your side. Sorry for the delay but I was first in a health recovery (from a bike accident) and then in a vacation for my moving. For the OpenStreetMap project, we can’t provide our data for that project. We are actually restructuring our GIS Data to make sure that the data we are providing to users is accurate. This step is essential for us to have the big picture of our trail (where we are), and where and how we want to move forward. It’s the status at TCT right now. We don’t know at this time how much time the reorganization of our database will take. Thanks to understand the process we are doing at TCT actually Have a nice day *Charles-André Roy* sentier Transcanadien - Trans Canada Trail *Coordonnateur en SIG*** *GIS Coordinator* *514-485-4345* *1-800-465-3636 Ext. 4345* Naviguez le sentier - Navigate the Trail www.tctrail.ca/tlocator ***** So that's basally where I'm at now. For now, i recommend that the tctrail.ca is OFF LIMITS for use with OpenStreetMap. And for my 'Across Canada Trails - Paved route idea' The safest bet is that i just hold out until i (eventually) here something from the Trans Canada Trail, and see what my guidelines will be for it. I don't see a problem which continuing what i started, see Tofino - Ucluelet start. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.052&lon=-125.25&zoom=9&layers=00B0FTF And of (course) i would make a detailed wiki-page explaining what this is, and why the talk-ca community will accept it :-) HOWEVER, for now, like I said to the Trans Canada Trail, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and get an 'official response' before proceeding. Until then, I continue with the Canada Import, as there is lots to do (and this Trans Canada Trail frustration has been taking up lots of my time), ... so me showing up at the AGM, would not actually help. (I can only help those who ask me questions, and want to know the answers). So maybe for next year, i will be able to share with them this 'Across Canada Trails' route. and keep it as the 'paved only-bicycle-only-wiki-route'. That's all for now, Thanks for reading this, :-) Cheers, Sam Vekemans Across Canada Trails (the 'unofficial' OpenStreetMap National Trails ccoordinator for Canada') :-)
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