Hello, I'm following up on the thread about saints and lack thereof in street names from a couple of months ago (see archives [1] [2]).
I would like to suggest the following wording added to Canadian tagging guidelines at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Street_names : In Ontario, street and road names containing initial "St." or "St" should only be expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common usage for that street. To be clear, this overrides the general rule https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29 for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other names in OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining common usage include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground" rule), spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data, and spellings used by official municipal sources including open data datasets. See discussion on talk-ca [0]. where [0] would be a link to this message/thread archive. (Comments on the wording and suggestions appreciated!) Is anyone opposed to this change? I have attempted to advertise/announce this proposed change. This was: - posted in this mailing list in March/April of this year (some quoted below, see list archives for more discussion) - I posted a note https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1741334 in Toronto with a link to this thread (supportive responses from Kevo and DannyMcD) - on April 10, sent a message [2] with a link to the note to editors who were showing up as top editors on http://osmstats.neis-one.org/?item=countries&country=Canada (they aren't necessarily representative of the community, but it's really the closest we can reasonably do given our current tooling) [3] (no private message responses) - posted on OSM Canada Slack on 17 August https://osm-ca.slack.com/archives/CASP8UQNT/p1566053199044200 (supportive responses from Matthew Darwin and Eric Geiler) - on August 27, sent a few more private messages to editors in top 50 on the stats page who had done Ontario edits [4] (no private message responses) If you know of anyone else who might have a further opinion on this, please forward as possible. Thanks, --Jarek [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2019-March/thread.html#9179 [2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2019-April/thread.html#9262 [3] message contents were mostly as follows (a few were additionally slightly customized, like noting an editor active in St. Thomas area): Hi [username], I am writing to you as an active mapper in Ontario. I have suggested a guideline to not expand “St”/”St.” to “Saint” in Ontario when it is signed as “St”/”St.” on the ground, so that for example St. Clair Avenue in Toronto would not be “Saint Clair Avenue”. I would welcome your comments. Please see https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1741334 for more details and feel free to respond on the note or in a PM to me. (Apologies if you have already seen this on the mailing list - usernames and mailing list names don’t always match so I messaged many editors just to be safe.) Thanks, –Jarek [4] recipients on April 10: Bootprint, andrewpmk, Kevo, EzekielT, Allan Sharpe, BlueJaysFan86, CamTGR, LogicalViolinist [5] recipients on August 27: Undearius, zzptichka, DannyMcD, egli, OttawaHiking, MaximusSayan On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 21:11, Jarek Piórkowski <ja...@piorkowski.ca> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm responding to the saints discussion I started last month. (Finally - > sorry.) > > Question: does anyone identify as an Ontario mapper and opposes a > resolution that in Ontario (except where overridden by more local > communities as in Ottawa) we do not expand "St" or "St." to "Saint"? > Sub-question: does anyone identify as a Toronto mapper and opposes a > resolution that in Toronto we got by majority of city signs [1] and we > do not expand "St" or "St." to "Saint" except where indicated by the > Toronto official open data centrelines shapefile? > > I have meanwhile checked Toronto's open data and their shapefiles/DBF > files [2] specify values like "St Andrew St" (Kensington Market), "St > Annes Rd" (~Dufferin Grove), "St John's Rd" (Junction, conflicting > with other sources on the apostrophe), and "St Clair Ave E". There is > also a "Street Name Index" [3] which includes a list of abbreviations > which does not feature "Saint" or its varieties and spells all "Saint" > roads like "ST GEORGE ST" and "ST CLAIR AVE E", and has no roads > starting with "SAINT" other than "SAINTFIELD AVE" and "SAINTSBURY SQ". > > Martin made the argument that "OSM database should use proper words" > but this seems to me to be an etymology argument. Under my admittedly > not very charitable reading, under this argument we would respect > local spelling differences like Canboro Road vs Canborough Road (name > changes at municipality border), we live with corruptions of Steele's > and St. Clare and so many "Queens" rather than "Queen's", we accept > non-original anglicized spellings for "Etobicoke" or "Spadina" or for > that matter "Ontario", but we do not accept where the name is posted > as "St." and not "Saint". I am open to better explanations. > > Tristan wrote to three cities (thank you, much appreciated!) and > states that "Names in Openstreetmap may only be abbreviated if the > expanded version is incorrect. Where either are acceptable, the Saint > must be used." But the question is exactly whether the expanded > versions are incorrect, and how should we or could we tell. In the > case of St. Clair the local historian source suggests it is not > correct as the street is apparently named after a person named "St. > Clare" who was not a saint. > > In a town once ruled by the English I can believe that "St. George > Street" is named after Saint George. But the English propensity to not > pay too much attention to apostrophes causes problems. Is "St. Clarens > Avenue" named after a saint, which one and how would we know? In Galt > in Cambridge there is a street we currently have tagged "St. Andrews > Street" (https://osm.org/way/650563356, signed "St. Andrews St" on > OpenStreetCam) - is that: "Saint Andrews Street", properly "Saint > Andrew's Street", or maybe "St Andrews Street" after the Scottish town > and university which is always spelled "University of St Andrews"? If > we have a "St. Johns" is that a typo, a corruption of Saint John or a > reference to St Johns, London, England? > > Should we try to research the history of each name? Seems easier to go > with the names posted on the signs (on the ground verifiability). And > while I've not seen an argument that a posted "Ave" isn't actually > short for "Avenue", we do have counterexamples for "St." now. Should > we have it on a per-city basis, with Toronto as "St."? > > Thanks, > --Jarek > > [1] we do have signs on one end of the street spelled differently than > others... > > [2] centrelines > https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/open-data/open-data-catalogue/locations-and-mapping/#e4ec3384-056f-aa59-70f7-9ad7706f31a3 > also addresses > https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/open-data/open-data-catalogue/locations-and-mapping/#f71a13c4-fb51-6116-57b7-1f51a8190585 > > [3] https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/9783-city-wide_index.pdf > > > > > On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 22:41, Matthew Darwin <matt...@mdarwin.ca> wrote: > > > > In Ottawa, there were (and still are) cases where the signs do not match > > the "official" name in the City of Ottawa database. Local mappers will > > consider the signs as authoritative according to OSM rules (what you see on > > the ground wins). > > > > When I come across this situation I contact the City of Ottawa and ask. I > > had a case where there were 3 different variations on the signs for a > > single street, none of which the matched the city database. Most times > > ended up with the case that the sign on the street needing to be changed. > > Apparently the folks in the sign shop recognize my name now... > > > > Also I'm waiting for the MTO to update the highway signs to have the > > correct spelling in a few cases. > > > > > > On 2019-03-19 4:32 p.m., john whelan wrote: > > > > Go back to Ottawa and from the discussion we had there in Ontario it is the > > municipality that is the authority. > > > > From memory years ago when OSM was mapped by cyclists taking photos of > > street names what was on the sign post was deemed correct. > > > > Unfortunately locally one street had three different signs that all > > differed slightly. > > > > Cheerio John > > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 4:19 PM Tristan Anderson, > > <andersontris...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> When in doubt, ask. > >> > >> I posed this question to three Ontario municipalities. Red Lake has told > >> me either are acceptable, as has Amherstburg. However, this is the > >> response I got after emailing 3...@toronto.ca > >> > >> Dear Tristan: > >> > >> Street names displayed on signs and outlined in official documents should > >> match the authorized spelling of the road name. For street names beginning > >> with Saint, the abbreviated spelling is correct. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> John House > >> Supervisor, Land & Property Surveys > >> Engineering Support Services > >> Engineering & Construction Services > >> City of Toronto > >> > >> Names in Openstreetmap may only be abbreviated if the expanded version is > >> incorrect. Where either are acceptable, the Saint must be used. In > >> general, an abbreviation in an official document does not imply that the > >> expanded version is incorrect; it may just be used for convenience. I'm > >> still not 100% convinced that we should be using St even in Toronto (note > >> that John admits to it being an "abbreviated spelling") but I just wanted > >> to throw his response out there. > >> > >> Tristan > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Nate Wessel <bike...@gmail.com> > >> Sent: March 15, 2019 1:42 PM > >> To: Jarek Piórkowski > >> Cc: talk-ca > >> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario > >> > >> > >> Interesting! > >> > >> > >> I didn't mean to imply that etymology should be decisive, but that linking > >> the name to the history of some beatified person would help explain the > >> origin of the 'St'... In this case, seemingly supporting the abbreviation, > >> but also referencing an actual 'saint' or two at the same time. > >> > >> > >> I like Danny's suggestion of the pronunciation tag. That seems like the > >> most elegant solution if anyone knows IPA. I've always wanted to learn it > >> actually but haven't yet had a good enough reason. > >> > >> > >> Nate Wessel > >> Jack of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning > >> NateWessel.com > >> > >> > >> On 3/15/19 1:18 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 13:02, Nate Wessel <bike...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like alt_name=*, > >> short_name=*, loc_name=*, and also name:etymology=* to make things > >> absolutely clear. > >> > >> Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as appropriate would > >> likely satisfy any dissenters and make both the full and abbreviated name > >> searchable. > >> > >> Certainly, but my message is to suggest that "St. Clair Avenue West" > >> _is_ the full name. We could set up an "expanded name" tag I suppose? > >> > >> Etymology wise, Wikipedia, citing (as far as I can tell) local > >> historians, suggests that St. Clair Avenue is named after Augustine > >> St. Clare, a character in Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the book spells the > >> last name "St. Clare", never expanded to "Saint". > >> > >> In any case, suggesting etymology as being decisive for names seems to > >> me problematic in many ways, especially in Canada where we've > >> adopted/mangled many names and phrases from other languages. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> --Jarek > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Talk-ca mailing list > >> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-ca mailing list > > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-ca mailing list > > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca _______________________________________________ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
