Hi, Svimik, or who ever You are behind this name, couple of points You missed what Jaak talks about: 1) At first, You should really use Your name, if You make a discussion with others. 2) Jaak pointed out, that You haven't start discussion about should we really need another import or how to do that. Good approach is, that after consensus, You create wiki page with enough information to everybody understand how this work and what will be outcome. Some unknown russian forum is not documantation to list it up. I assume we have separate space for that. Accusing Jaak for being racist is quite... racist. I know that russians like to bring that up every single time they do not like something, but You are not getting anywhere with this attitude. If You want to be respectful enough, You really should learn estonian. Writing in english is not considered favor by any means. It is just very common practice. 3) This is not data maintaining. This is another and new import. No one validates or maintains previously imported buildings. If You want to consider it as maintaining, You should ask all ETAK building changes from 2013 and build Your tool up to that. This data is not freely available, as I know. 3) I don't consider corine import as crap. I know what are issues with it and that we still suffer with that, but I think it was right thing to do. Without that, our Estonian map would be quite empty even now. But generally, imports from another data-source is not a good way to improve osm. This is not what osm is about. And because of that, we should really discuss that before creating any new imports. I'm sure, that nowdays ETAK building data is good enough to import 1:1, but last time import added big amount rubbish buildings into osm. 4) I'm agree with Mihkel, that our human resources are quite limited, so there is no possibility to cover all buildings in normal way. But do we have to? More than buildings, I concern rural areas addresses. Because geocoding/routing services are in trouble to find addresses in rural areas. If I look Latvian rural areas, then there is almost every household (even abonded) marked with place=isolated_twelling, but usually no mapped buildings yet. Just building do not give us much information. And in rendered map point-of-view, landuse=residential over households are equaly important. 5) I would prefer tool, that actually finds unmapped buildings and then open editor with that location, so user can map building under own account. Svimik, if You can, add link also to ID-editor with Maa-amet orthophoto basemap. 6) For what this nickname used for? Just for statistics? 7) As Jaak also pointed out, buildings in Your tool appear in quite random order. For example, if I mark one as accepted, I saw that there is also several missing buildings. I would assume, that next building is one of them, but it wasn't. Adding a distance ordering from first building user marked to pick next one would be great, as You already are familiar with surroundings. Also picking a location where to start should be trivial.
I'm not against this import. It is not blind mass-import, there is some kind on human filter between. Having related with ETAK data production in the past, I'm quite sure, that ETAK buildings are far better shape than they were before. They still are not up to date in some areas, but it is common issue for all datasets. w.r. Mihkel Oviir Kontakt Mihkel Rämmel (<[email protected]>) kirjutas kuupäeval E, 5. august 2019 kell 19:50: > Hi, > Some notes from my side: > > The building import from 6 years ago had small issues with 2 things: > non-square buildings and adjoining buildings. > First one should be easy to solve by not squaring buildings where > corners are not around 90 degrees. Or has this been already solved? > Currently buildings do not use same nodes despite sharing a wall. It > would be hard or impossible to fix it programmatically without faults, > even if all data is imported once after post processing the accepted > data. A tool to assist going through such cases afterwards would not > hurt. This would assist in finding and fixing what came with import + > what has been drawn by users but might also need fixing. > Otherwise no other issues that I can remember of. > > About import vs manual mapping - If there would be more mappers I > would prefer manual mapping of buildings (as more details get mapped > at the same region). But as there are few active mappers and some > passive mappers (including myself), I'm happy with import. With > current going there is no hope in foreseeable future of manually > mapping all significant buildings. There are regions that are well > mapped and there are regions where practically no mapping has happened > over the past years. > > > Regards, > Mihkel R > osm: RM87 > > > On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 11:41 PM SviMik via Talk-ee > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > First, I'd really like you to stop being so aggressive. You could spend > that energy to actually do something to improve OSM rather than ranting > about not being able to understand other languages. Keep in mind that I was > respectful enough to start this discussion in English, so literally > everyone could understand me. And you was disrespectful enough to say that > people who speak Russian are not part of the local community, even when > they physically live in Estonia. Don't be racist, OSM is not about the race > or the language we speak, okay? International projects are supposed to > bring people together. Where does this hatred come from? > > > > Now, here are my points: > > > > 1) It was discussed in talk-ee mailing list 30.03.2013. > > > > 2) After the 2013 import was done, I even made a short presentation > during SotM Baltics 2013 explaining this import and the tools we used. > > > > 3) You’re talking about maintaining the data, but that's exactly what > I'm doing right now. > > > > 4) I'm really sorry for you if your import was a crap. Mine wasn't. Even > looking at my import 5 years later I can still say that it was a complete > success and the right thing to do. > > > > 5) The source of the data is Maa-amet. I'm not offering any editor tools > nor any way to alter the data. My tools are only to confirm or reject the > objects to be imported, thus there is no editors per se that needs to be > identified. > > > > 6) This is not a blind import - people see every single change that is > going to happen, and free to confirm or reject every one of them. > > > > > > Воскресенье, 4 августа 2019, 19:41 +03:00 от "Jaak Laineste" < > [email protected]>: > > > > > > Your tools are really cool from technical perspective, but have you > ever > > > discussed it fully with the local community, so the stategy is agreed? > I see > > > link in the wiki page to some forum, but this is not a local community > forum, > > > it is Russian forum and it is even in a language what a lot of younger > > > generation does not understand. It is just as absurd as if we would > start to > > > discuss in Estonian how to map say New York, agree some strategies and > then > > > assume that it is ok to garbage the map there. I really hope you don't > > > consider Estonia somehow as a part of Russia. > > > > > > My position is that in early years of OSM automatic imports of map for > regions > > > what you don’t know made some sense, but now they do more harm - > create map > > > data what is not maintained and not maintainable. Kind of digital > garbage. Is > > > is much better map less, more carefully, and avoid senseless copy of > other map > > > data. Again, if someone needs Maaamet maps then they should take the > latest > > > version from them anytime. There is no need to copy if over to OSM at > all. OSM > > > is never meant to be collection of different geo datasets, even if > they are > > > really nice, it is human-created original global map database. > > > > > > Now if you decide to do it, then the editors must be identified. There > is > > > process on agreeing on legal contributor terms of edits, including > right to > > > take back the agreement. If you put all edits under your own name, > then anyone > > > can claim that you did not do the edits, and can request to just undo > all of > > > them. It looks like complete legal mess there from IP perspective. > Also there > > > is no way to ask comments/clarifications about specific edits. > Therefore > > > proper way to do it would be like with editors like ID, JOSM etc - > every user > > > is identified with OSM username, takes responsibility for his/her > edits, so it > > > is clear who to contact and who is responsible for this. > > > > > > I did several mass-imports in early OSM days myself, after discussions > with > > > local and international community. They looked nice at once, but in > longer > > > term maybe it was even bad idea, there would be more motivated > contributors, > > > and the map would be more useful and interesting without them. There > is still > > > “dead” data what noone can update (from Corine for example), and I > would be > > > more happy if someone would create a tool to automatically delete it > now. > > > > > > Jaak > > > > > > > > > > On 4 Aug 2019, at 14:26, SviMik <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > For everyone who is new here, this is exactly the same import we did > 5 years > > > ago, just updating it with new data. > > > > > > > > The import is briefly described on the wiki page: > > > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maa-amet#Import > > > > > > > > 1. The account for the imports is: > > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SviMik_import/history > > > > > > > > 2. Why do you need streets? I'm just asking to confirm putting that > address > > > on that outline. All you need to do is just make sure they match. > > > > > > > > > > > > Воскресенье, 4 августа 2019, 13:16 +03:00 от "Jaak Laineste" > > > <[email protected]>: > > > >> > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> About first 2 tools: > > > >> > > > >> 1. what they do as result exactly? add data to OSM database? If > yes, then > > > >> under which username? I don’t see any auth here, is feels like > “anonymous > > > >> editor”, but OSM does not allow anonymous edits. > > > >> > > > >> 2. about second one - map view is too much zoomed in, usually I > don’t see > > > any > > > >> streets to see the context, so it is really like filling random > captchas > > > >> without any real check. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In general I miss here location filters, I want only work with my > home > > > >> city/village what I know about. Generally “guerilla mapping” where > you jump > > > in > > > >> to a random place you really know nothing about is not generating > good map > > > >> quality in long term at all, and this not suggested. If you map > something, > > > >> then you will be responsible for the data and you need to be sure > that it > > > will > > > >> be also up-to-date in years to come. Especially if you do random > map copy, > > > in > > > >> principle here we just copy maa-amet map which does not give much > value, > > > >> everyone could just use maaamet vector map data, this is openly > shared > > > also. > > > >> Remote mapping is suggested only for exceptional cases, e.g. in > emergencies > > > >> (HOT actions) where you need quickly map and cannot go to the place. > > > >> > > > >> But the tools can be very useful - I would use them for my known, > usually > > > >> quite small specific regions like city or village. I can do ground > work and > > > >> will maintain my edits later, and I cannot do it if mapping area > is whole > > > >> country. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Jaak > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On 3 Aug 2019, at 17:38, SviMik via Talk-ee < > [email protected]> > > > >> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> And it needs your help! > > > >>> There's many new buildings that were built during the last 5 > years. Let's > > > >> bring the map up to date. > > > >>> > > > >>> - To import brand new buildings, visit this page: > > > >>> http://osm.svimik.com/btrace_verify.php > > > >>> Just click OK making sure there's no building in OSM already by > looking at > > > >> the map in the middle. > > > >>> > > > >>> - Some buildings were drawn by other users, but they didn't put an > > > address. > > > >> Visit this page to help add addresses to existing buildings: > > > >>> http://osm.svimik.com/xgis2osm.php?lang=en > > > >>> Just enter the house numbers from the pictures like a captcha > solving. > > > >>> > > > >>> - Like to map roads? The 'Missing roads' validator is back to life > too! > > > >>> http://osm.svimik.com/noroad.php > > > >>> It shows all the places where a building exists, but there's no > roads > > > around > > > >> to get there. > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Talk-ee mailing list > > > >>> [email protected] > > > >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Svjatoslav Mikhailov > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Svjatoslav Mikhailov > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-ee mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-ee mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee >
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