+1... or -1 as well? not sure how the arithmetic of these is supposed to work. anyway, i agree with phil.
cheers, matt On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Phil James <[email protected]> wrote: > At risk of being a fly in the ointment, judging by the largely > favourable responses to this idea, I for one would like to register > myself as > -1. > <Rant> Please don't map an area if you are not familiar with it. I have > done some armchair mapping, but only where I am familiar with the area, > and feel I can add value to the data I am entering. If you are that > desperate for a 'complete' map, go out and do more surveying, or just > use OS or other commercially available products. I just feel that > blatant, blind copying of OS data is prostituting what I thought Open > Street Map was meant to be about.</Rant> > OK, I've got my tin hat on: standing by for incoming... ;-) > > Phil. > > > [email protected] wrote: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 12:07:33 +0100 >> From: Kai Krueger <[email protected]> >> Subject: [Talk-GB] UK Project of the week - trace a village off of >> OSSV? >> To: 'talk-gb' <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> I would like to suggest as a sort of "Project of the week" for the UK >> for people to pick a random town or village somewhere in the UK that so >> far has poor coverage and trace it's roads from OS OpenData StreetView. >> >> Despite the various claims over the years that the UK road will be "road >> complete" by the "end of the year", the UK is still a far distance off >> of that target. I have heard the numbers that so far we have on the >> order of 50% of named roads (people who are working on OS - OSM >> comparisons please correct me if I am wrong). Which is by no means a >> small feat of achieving, but also not as high as one would like it to be. >> >> So let us try and accelerate this a bit by everyone picking a small >> random town or village somewhere in the UK and trace the roads from >> StreetView. It probably only takes about 10 - 20 minutes for a small >> village and even a small town isn't too bad to do (if the weather is bad >> and you can't go out). So with the help of OS data, we can get a big >> step closer to where we would like to be and use it as a basis to >> continue to improve beyond the quality of OS data or any other >> commercial map provider. >> >> (If you are convinced already, then no need to read the rest of the email) >> >> I know that many people are opposed to "armchair mapping" or imports >> (and btw I am not proposing a full scale import here, but manual tracing >> instead) and so I'd like to counter some of the arguments most likely >> going to be brought up against this sort of non local tracing: >> >> 1) OS data might have mistakes, be outdated and generally not as good as >> what OSM aims for: Yes, no doubt OS has errors and can be outdated in >> many places by a couple of years ( I have found more than enough of >> those myself). Furthermore, all of the OS products released lack many of >> the properties we are interested in like one way roads, turn and other >> restrictions, POIs, foot and cycle ways and all the other things that >> make OSM data such a rich and valuable dataset. So yes, the OS data will >> clearly not replace any of the "traditional" OSM surveying techniques or >> be the end of things. But it can be a great basis to build upon. >> As a comparison, have a look (assuming you have a timecapsal ;-)) at >> what the data of e.g. central London looked like in 2007. It already had >> surprisingly many roads, but hardly any POIs or other properties that we >> aim for now. Most of that came later in many iterations of improvement. >> A single pass of "OSM" surveying is not any better than the OS data per >> se. Also given that the errors introduced by tracing OS data are exactly >> the same type of errors introduced by manual "OSM" surveying, i.e. >> misspellings in roads, missing roads, outdated roads, ... We need to >> have the tools to deal with this kind of maintenance anyway. It is the >> iterations that make OSM data what it is, not the "first pass ground >> survey". >> Creating a blanket base layer from OS data allows us to much better >> focus on the aspects that do distinguish us from every other map data >> provider with having to "waste" as little as possible resources on the >> "stuff everyone else has" too. >> >> 2) large scale imports and tracing hinders community growth: This >> perhaps is the more important of the two arguments, as indeed what >> distinguishes us from everyone else is the community and without the >> community and its constant iterations and improvements, OSM data will >> "bit rot" just as much as all other data. However I don't think there is >> any clear evidence either way of what non local mapping does to >> communities and it remains hotly debated. The negative effects claimed >> are usually of the form a) The area looks complete, there is nothing >> more to do, so why bother. Or, it isn't as much fun to add a POI than a >> whole new village on a blank canvas. b) I put in all this effort into >> mapping an area and along comes an import and steam rollers all this >> into a mess, I am leaving. c) imports introduce a new class of bugs, >> e.g. duplicate nodes or broken connectivity that OSM mappers wouldn't so >> we don't have the tools to deal with these sort of errors correctly. >> b) and c) are specific to imports and thus manual tracing shouldn't >> suffer the same issues. a) may be the case, but it is clearly a case >> that we need to be able to deal with anyway, as more and more areas >> become "complete" by "them selves". And looking at the better mapped >> areas, like Germany or some of the UK cities, I don't think there is any >> evidence that you can't attract new comers into already mapped areas. It >> is potentially also offset by all those people who simple want to use >> the data for something like embed a map into their blog or use OSM data >> on their Garmin, their phone, their game, their ... and will fix the odd >> bug they discover while doing so, but can't really as it simply isn't >> complete enough yet. >> >> Other examples of remote mapping have also been fairly successful. The >> most obvious one was Haiti. It's initial phase was entirely arm chair >> mapping and had no community at all. Only later followed by on the >> ground surveying. Never the less it is generally considered a success >> and has gained OSM many new mappers. >> >> The other example is mapping during holidays. Lets say I go and visit a >> mostly unmapped island in Scotland. I'll be able to survey a few roads, >> add the odd POI make a few mistakes and miss many details. I will also >> never return to that place again to fix up any bugs I might have >> introduced. Should I not have mapped during the holidays as I wasn't a >> "local mapper" or part of the "local community"? If I do it in a foreign >> country, I might not even no the local laws. >> >> So again, we as a community as a whole need to be able to deal with >> these sorts of issues that also arise from armchair mapping and it is a >> great test for our ability to create appropriate quality assurance tools. >> >> >> Anyway, far too much rambling from my side already, so I better stop now >> again. I just felt like countering some of the general negativity >> towards armchair mapping and imports. >> >> Kai >> >> > > > > --- > avast! 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