Hey, I totally agree that we need to fix the rendering so that the renderer will show ref tags on route relations. But until then, it's impractical to expect people to avoid putting the ref tags on the ways. I do agree with not tagging for the renderer, but I was merely pointing out that it's impractical to expect EVERYONE to follow it in this case until the renderer is fixed.
There's always gonna be people who will be like "I want to see the route numbers so I'm just gonna circumvent tagging convention and tag the ref tags on the ways instead of just the relation." As an example, I remember back before Andy Allan created Carto, the code for the Mapnik stylesheet was super complex and so there were a lot of bugs that took forever to get fixed, including one where river names were not being displayed, so people would tag rivers as streams to get the name to show up, even though that's tagging for the renderer. I never fixed those things as I could totally understand why people would do that and expecting people to follow the "don't tag for the renderer" rule in that case is overly legalistic. Instead of being annoyed that people tag for the renderer, turn your annoyance at the renderer itself and push for it to get fixed or help fix it if you have the expertise. Hopefully we can get actual route shields implemented too. That's what got me to create route relations for all of WA's state routes several years ago when Phil Gold was working on making the shields. OSM would look awesome in the US if we had those route shields! Anyway, to get back on topic, I don't agree with tagging the ref tags on link roads, as long as it's part of the route relation. I have seen instances, though, where people tag what should be a motorway link as a motorway when a route exits off a freeway to get the route number to render, and I'm not exactly fond of that practice. -Evin (compdude) On Fri, Aug 24, 2018, 10:57 AM OSM Volunteer stevea < [email protected]> wrote: > > Evin Fairchild <[email protected]> wrote > > The only way you can get people to stop putting reg tags on ways and > only put them on relations is if the renderer actually rendered reg tags > from relations. Currently it doesn't do this, so > > All good and correct so far... > > > it's impractical for people to do what you're suggesting. > > By "you" Evin means Paul Johnson and by "do what you're suggesting" — > eliminating ref=* tags on ways — (as they are 100% redundant if the way is > part of the appropriate route relations) Paul's suggestion is excellent. > It is correct, not impractical. > > Continuing to put ref=* tags on ways is called a "workaround." Like a > bandage on a wound, workarounds can be decent short-term solutions, but the > real healing which OSM must complete is for renderers to respect route > relation tags. All else is folly. > > > Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, don't tag for the renderer, > > OSM's tenet of "don't tag for the renderer" is something I respect. Yet > (especially in this case) it has qualities of "magical thinking" whereby > the wound is artificially babied along by pretending away that the real > work renderers must (MUST!) do is to fully respect long-established data > structures renderers purport to represent. If that is hard work > (evidently, it is), well, let's roll up our sleeves and code (FIX!) our > renderers so they properly visually represent our data. > > Babying along wounds, pretending away and magical thinking are elements of > sad, broken, amateurish projects: they'll "get you through the night," and > for too long in OSM, they have. But as OSM matures into a happy, working, > professional-grade project (we have, we do) that simply doesn't cut it any > longer. Someone has to say this — again and again, apparently — until the > real solution of "this is hard work, but we must do it" is completed. > > > but I'd you don't have route numbers show up at all, them this really > reduces the usability of the map. > > What a fantastic incentive to fix renderers: evidence of "tag like we say > we should tag" means "hm, renderers don't respect that!" We can no longer > say "don't code for the renderer," wink at those who do and continue to say > and do this while "rendering incompletely." It is disingenuous and shows > that something is fundamentally broken in our project. We MUST fix > renderers or we DESERVE monikers of "sad, broken, amateurish." > > > It's such an important thing that there's no way you can get people to > stop putting the reg tags on ways unless the renderer rendered the ref tags > for the whole relation. > > It is circular logic (explained) and circular logic is broken. We must > fix our renderers so they fully respect our well-established data > structures. No longer can we be told "don't pay attention to that man > behind the curtain" while winking and workarounds fight each other for > dominance: OSM loses (big time) in the long-run as we continue to fool > ourselves with the folly of these contradictions. > > The bottom line, "easy as cake, simple as pie:" FIX WHAT IS BROKEN. Is > this difficult software development? That's OK, let's do it. No more > excuses. It isn't impossible to avoid contradictions, though it may be > hard work. > > With the greatest respect for our project, > SteveA > California
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