Hi Erica, Now @Evan has 2x new volunteers, I am sure that there are a few more :)
I would love to attend the BBB meeting (GTALUG AGM), but it is just before 3am in my time zone on a day where I have to work a full day the next day Whatever the group decides though, please do consider that there are many skills on the list and that between us we could probably do anything :) I would love to contribute whatever is needed to ensure that gtalug mailing lists continue existing, even if @google or whatever the group decides... On Thu, 01 Dec 2022 12:33:49 +0000 Erica Peterson <epeter...@protonmail.com> wrote: > What about something like this? > https://www.mailmanlists.net/en > > $50/year (USD) for a list with up to 1000 subscribers (prices go up > from there). I'm not sure how many are on this list. > > I'll happily help administer if the hosting is taken care of (ie, the > hosting provider handles server admin, patching, etc). > > Cheers, > Erica > > > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 2:30 AM, ac via talk > <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 11:30:46 -0500 > > Evan Leibovitch e...@telly.org wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > > We've had some very smart people running mailman and it still > > > doesn't work to anyone's satisfaction. Or maybe it's our SMTP > > > server, I don't know which one it is. > > > > So, this is the place to start. > > > > When "directors" or "boards" or "leaders" make decisions on policy > > it affects operations. Always. and many times it is "politics" and > > "feelings" and without a proper understanding of the underlying real > > issues. > > > > Some background: Re Email: GOOGLE relays almost all of the email on > > the planet, with Microsoft trailing in second place and the rest of > > the planet as a small minority. > > > > This has come about mainly because of the initial vast difference in > > how abuse was handled in the past. Google and Microsoft simply > > re-writes bounce messages or simply deletes/loses transmission. to > > be fair most of the surviving email providers like myself, now does > > exactly the same thing. We are all now lying as this is the new > > normal and the other new normal is that whenever you receive any > > incoming relay from Google or Microsoft there are gambling odds > > that it is rubbish. Google wants and does relay vast amounts of > > electronic email BUT they do not receive or act on abuse complaints > > via electronic mail :) Microsoft still receives abuse complaints > > via email, but, in my own personal opinion: much of the submitted > > email abuse complaints are meaningless and a waste of time. > > > > Anyway Evan, you said that you tried sending an email to this list > > on Sunday: I do not know if you received a bounce notification or > > if your email just disappeared - but the nett result was probably > > that your email to the list was not distributed. So, on my smtp > > servers what happened would depend on the reason. For example if > > the Google server Google used to relay your email was also hacked > > and sending out malware not yet in anti virus strings, your email > > would just have silently been deleted and you would not even have > > received a bounce notice - as Google would have probably either > > deleted the bounce notification themselves or they would have > > re-written it to something obtuse stating that failure is due to an > > administrative prohibition at the recipient mail server (as they > > never accept responsibility and always blame the victim for their > > own abuse) > > > > Also, I heard the first time in 1989 that email is dead, after that > > there has been a thread or news discussion almost every year stating > > that email is dead. But email is just so unique in that it is > > imperfect, like us and I am not so sure that it will go quietly > > into the night anytime soon. Mailing lists however maybe will die, > > but the level of signal to noise is just so high on other platforms > > (which is why IRC never killed mailing lists..) that should a group > > allow their mailing list to die, or fall into disuse, it may affect > > the quality, diversity and activity of the group. > > > > Regarding your issues with either mailman or smtp server, you do not > > seem to know or be sure: imo it is more probably the smtp server and > > also probably not the smtp server itself, but the settings and > > configuration policies of external free data providers. > > > > Also, it is quite possible that the smtp server is behaving > > correctly by, for example rejecting your Sunday email - as the > > server your provider may have been using may have been a > > compromised server and could have been listed on RBL like Spamcop > > or sorbs DUL or some other high trust DROP list. > > > > How these things are handled is different in different providers, > > but what works best is to simply drop everything from the hacked > > server. So, if for example a Google server becomes hacked and is > > pumping out malware with an email from Evan, it is all rejected or > > dropped, depending on policy. > > > > It sounds like gtalug does not have policies supported by majority > > of users? > > > > (Should Evans email from a blocked public server be bounced - or > > not - and which free block lists does gtalug trust and use for drop > > - how is drop handled (bounce or nay?) etc etc etc. > > > > If you move the mailing list to Google you will also not have to > > worry about control or policies as these will be set by Google. > > > > It also means that when there are REAL issues (You would not believe > > this but Google is not perfect...) > > 1. You will probably not know about it > > 2. You will not be able to do anything about it > > 3. You will probably not understand it > > 4. You will do whatever Google says to resolve the issue > > (Recently I had to create another @gmail account as part of the > > "resolution" of a technical issue - and it took three weeks to > > resolve...) > > 5. etc etc etc. > > > > > The existing people on the Board have just become exhausted and > > > the volunteers with the tech skills and keys to everything aren't > > > always reachable. As volunteers I don't expect immediate tech > > > support, but it just makes the process of constant firefighting > > > more than we are prepared to bear. > > > > Well, I have also now volunteered. As I am in a different time zone > > maybe this could help as I could be available when others are not? > > > > > cannot take more than an hour or two per month to admin. > > > > > > I can only tell you that this is nowhere near the effort required, > > > which is an insane amount of effort required for a small group > > > like ours. > > > > then you need more automation/scripts - seriously, it cannot take > > that much of your time and even now, I have zero understanding of > > what you are saying is constantly borked or what you are doing in > > terms of spending so much time on? > > > > > > > Anything we host ourselves bears both admin resources and > > > > > financial hosting cost. Right now we're using mailman and > > > > > frankly, I see the bounce messages and it's almost impossible > > > > > to keep track of. (Hint: I tried mailing this Sunday night > > > > > but that bounced). I really don't like mailman anymore. There > > > > > are better ways to filter spam. > > > > > if your own email to mailman is bouncing, this is probably > > > > > not what you think it is :) > > > > > > It probably isn't. But I'm tired of running after other people to > > > diagnose. > > > > If the actual problem is at your chosen sender and not at gtalug - > > what is the policy? > > > > imnsho - Policy: If the sender (You or your provider) is at fault - > > there is nothing to "diagnose" or resolve at gtalug - the sender can > > send again, whenever the sender provider actually works - but this > > is not the current policy? - the current policy is to diagnose the > > issue at gtalug or try to "whitelist" the sender (and then > > something else breaks?) or what is the current policy? > > > > > > That said, I'm in no position to guarantee anything. > > > > > > > > and this sentence is the crux of it. personally I do not trust > > > > google. > > > > > > I can't guarantee that I'll be alive tomorrow, either. > > > There is no reason to believe that Google for Nonprofits is going > > > away any time this decade, and if there is I'd love to hear it. If > > > they tried it, the outcry from the charitable world would be > > > deafening. There are many reasons and ways to mistrust Google; > > > this isn't one of them. > > > > > > it would be far easier to pay 10 bucks and get three sysadmins to > > > each donate > > > > > > > an hour a month (and their scripts :) ) > > > > > > That's the whole point of this conversation. We're already paying > > > a nominal hosting fee and have volunteer sysadmins and things are > > > still constantly borked. > > > IT IS NOT EASIER, let alone FAR easier, our real-world experience > > > to date bears that out. > > > > > > I think I understand the "constantly borked" issues? > > > > You do know that the issues are very unlikely to be technical > > issues, right? > > > > It sounds like POLICY issues and not a technical issues? > > > > For one, if a gtalug is attempting to relay to the list from an > > abusive @google server how should this be resolved? > > > > - I would suggest that it is not whitelisted > > - as this would also mean that there will be other issues :) > > > > - I would suggest a policy that the user or board member or whomever > > tries re-sending or sending from a non blocked server... > > > > I seriously just do not understand what is constantly borked? and I > > am 100% sure that whatever issues there are can be easily fixed. > > > > Regading wordpress hosting - It is so simple to admin a vps with > > gtalug wordpress on apache with modsec rules. When combined > > with cloudflare and other free services (matomo etc) and properly > > configured and hardened it simply is not difficult at all. > > > > But again, what breaks wordpress is when there are no set rules and > > when any plugin or theme from anywhere is allowed/used without > > someone actually reading the code. > > > > imho policies, rules and protocols (if you are in control thereof) > > is crucial to the non borking of anything. > > > > > so, if you decide to continue having an emailing list and self > > > hosted services > > > > > > > I would gladly donate some of my time (at least four hours a > > > > month [...] > > > > > > If all we had to do is threaten to move services to Google in > > > order to get more people to volunteer, we could have done that > > > ages ago. We're well past that. Your four hours a month are still > > > very much valued, but we need that energy for more things than > > > just keeping things running -- especially when we have an offer, > > > at no cost, of commercial-grade online services. > > > > > > providing that there is at least one (or two) other high/senior > > > skill > > > > dev/sys/ops also? > > > > > > See? Every volunteer effort comes with strings and limitations. So > > > does mine. So does that for everyone else on the Board. > > > A group this small should not need to be spending so much of its > > > behind-the-scenes energy just herding cats. There's too much else > > > to do that isn't being done just so we can keep the virtual > > > lights on. > > > > > > - Evan > > > > > > --- > > Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org > > Unsubscribe from this mailing list > > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
