Glad we got that point sorted out. Would have thought it to be rather old-fashioned, should it request a camera, to perform an internal file. In reality, as I showed in my earlier walk-through of an OCR process, the camera will be rendered useless, long as you are handling the electronic documents. You will never be able to feed any electronic document into a camera. Simply because, whatever is the camera gonna do with the information?
All OCR processing in effect is solely processed INSIDE the computer. Where the information came from is of no real interest for the OCR. The camera, scanner or any other feeding device, is ONLY - and I mean ONLY - required when you do not have access to an electronic version of the information. Robert, my big question to you now is: Since you seem to only want the program to recognize electronic documents, do you really want to fork out hundreds and thousands of dollars? Just because the KFNB has been developed for blind people, does not tell there would be no other ways. As a matter of fact, I have been doing OCR on a regular basis, ever since early 90's. I have never owned any of the "specially taylored" equipment. That is, except from in the very beginning, when we used a software named Recognita, and which was a slightly modified version of what now is OmniPage. Then again, I have never used a camera for my OCR, always run via a scanner. Yet, the new version of Omnipage, is about 200 dollars, and according to their ads, should be able to perform with both a scanner and a camera. And there might be several other products out there. Currently I am using a software named Abby Reader, which is somehow cheaper than the Omnipage, but also slightly less rich in features. My version is a bit outdated, so cannot run with camera, only with a scanner. All of that said, absolutely all the software I have been using, for more like 25 years, have had the chance of performing OCR on already electronically stored files, like PDF and similar. They have been operated through menus, and I have not had much trouble in doing so. The interface of the KFNB might be somehow simplified, and it might hold certain features of adjusting the picture fed into it. My understanding is that Kurtzweil - another OCR for blind users - will have some features as well. And wasn't there something named OpenBook as well, I do believe? Generally, these specially taylored pieces of software, is like any other technical aid for the blind - WAY over-priced. Though I have not checked the pricing of the KFNB, so would be glad if someone could inform us what price range it falls under. If you are the owner of Microsoft Office, I do wonder if there was a simplified OCR included with that suite as well. Not sure if it handles PDF's, but do your homework, before you go out and throw your money in the streets. Smiles. KFNB, the way I have understood it, has its greater benefit on mobile devices, and if that is what you are looking for, go ahead. But for Windows, make sure you don't spend money on things and features that you will not be using. Not even sure, if a camera would be the right thing for the PC user, but will leave that for the ones who have tried, to comment on. Would be lovely to know if the KFNB can perform anything on the computer, superior to any of the mainstream products in the market. Just some thoughts. Like I have stressed, I have never tested the KFNB, so if I am to be corrected, go ahead anyone. Smiles. On 11/29/2017 7:59 AM, Tom Kingston via Talk wrote: > Joseph, > You should know what you're talking about before disseminating > incorrect information. The KNFB reader does not need a camera to read > any of the file types it supports. They're files already on the > computer. What are you going to do with a camera? You import the files > into KNFB and it's just another image already created that the same > process is performed on. > > Bob. Here's a link to the web site with the full documentation. > https://knfbreader.com/knfb-reader-windows-10-complete-user-guide > > Good luck, > Tom > > > On 11/29/2017 12:57 AM, joseph hudson via Talk wrote: >> Hello, as I reported on another list, no I don't think so. It needs a >> camera to read files. >> Joseph Hudson >> >> Email >> [email protected] >> I device support >> Telephone >> 2543007667 >> Skype >> joseph.hudson89 >> facebook >> https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404 >> Twitter >> https://twitter.com/josephhudson89 >> >> FaceTime/iMessage >> [email protected] >> >>> On Nov 28, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Robert Ringwald via Talk >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks David. Very interesting. >>> >>> My one question is, if all I want to do with the KNFB program is >>> decipher scanned PDF files that are already in my WLM email, will >>> the KNFB reader read those internally with no camera or any other >>> device needed? >>> >>> I have Win 10 and WLM 12 on a del PC. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: David via Talk >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 2:16 PM >>> To: Window-Eyes Discussion List >>> Cc: David >>> Subject: Re: Question About KNFB and camera. >>> >>> PDF documents, or any other file formats on your computer, are >>> electronically stored information. >>> >>> >>> Cameras cannot read electronic documents. They are such constructed, >>> they need to "see" things in real, before they can do anything. >>> >>> >>> All electronic formats, be it music, video, documents or just any >>> blah-blah-blah, will have to be processed internally in the computer. >>> >>> >>> To best illustrate things, may I suggest you think of the camera as the >>> "eye" of the computer. Let's at the same time, tell the scanner to be >>> the other "eye" of the PC. The CPU, (or processor), the RAM and any >>> other electronic inside your computer's physical box - well, let's name >>> it the brain. Even so, the hard disk or SSD, which we will compare to >>> your "deep memory". >>> >>> >>> As you well know, your physical eyes cannot "look" inside the brain, >>> and >>> perform anything from within your body. Rather, the eyes can feed the >>> brain with information, which your brain now can process. >>> >>> >>> Back to your query. You will need a camera to feed any written or >>> physically visible information into the computer. Whatever has already >>> been fed into the computer, like an electronically stored document, >>> will >>> be non-interesting for the camera, scanner or any further feeding >>> equipment. All processing of what you have in your brain, will be done >>> by the brain directly. All information already stored on your computer, >>> will be processed directly by the computer, and loaded software. >>> >>> >>> I know, you wanted a quick answer to your question. I just thought it >>> might be helpful for you and others, to have a clarified comprehension >>> of why the answer is the way it stands. >>> >>> >>> To jhust elaborate a tiny bit here, let me in very short terms tell you >>> how any OCR software works. >>> >>> First of all, it needs to retrieve some information. It will typically >>> leave you the chance of defining whether it should grab some electronic >>> document, or if it should contact an external piece of equipment - like >>> a camera or a scanner. To the software, it basically does not matter >>> whichever way you feed it with information. >>> >>> >>> Next, it will start to process the information it has loaded into its >>> memory. All such electronic information is made up of 0's and 1's, also >>> known as pixels. And the software will compare the layout of these, >>> with >>> an internal dictionary. The dictionary will be like a tremendous >>> collection of stencils. If the OCR finds that a set of dots (or pixels) >>> in the received information matches any stencil in the dictionary, it >>> will know what character this will represent. It now will "type" this >>> character into a virtual document, thereby imitating you pressing a key >>> on the keyboard. >>> >>> >>> Finally, when it has finished the whole loaded information, it will >>> present you with the virtually typed document. >>> >>> >>> For your information, in old times, the stencil-lookup was pretty >>> much a >>> one-to-one comparison. That means, it would need a match that would be >>> very close to the exact stenciled shape. If it was to recognize >>> anything >>> to be the letter O, it would need a set of pixels in a perfect circle. >>> >>> >>> Modern OCR software has become far mor "inteligent", whatever we >>> want to >>> talk about inteligence when comes to silly electronic units like a >>> computer. The inteligence is that the OCR no longer will depend on >>> close >>> to exact matches. To a very high degree, it might "look" at the >>> properties of a scanned character, and base its recognition on the >>> results thereof. For instance, it would conclude that a set of pixels >>> that resemble two parallel vertical lines, slightly spaced from each >>> other, with a horizontal line running just about mid-way up between the >>> verticals - all in all will be interpreted as the capitalized letter H. >>> >>> Likewise, a vertical bar, with a tiny line pointing diagonally out from >>> the upper left end, will likely be told to be the number 1. >>> >>> >>> As you might understand, such propetary comparison will be more >>> forgiving, than if you were to compare exact matches. You no longer >>> need >>> to define how high the character can be, or what the width should be. >>> The OCR can "see" this is the number 9, big or small print, simply by >>> recognizing the shape and other properties of the character. This is >>> one >>> of the reasons, modern OCR can perform high degrees of faultless >>> recognition. In the old days of the 80's, often a number 9, and the >>> lower-case G, would be confusingly recognized as either, due to the >>> fact >>> that they quite much would resemble similar pixel-patterns. >>> >>> >>> to improve the OCR recognition, modern OCR software further will hold >>> comprehensive dictionaries for spelling, in several languages. It is >>> considered very little likely, that any word in English would be: >>> >>> log9ing, >>> >>> so the OCR will recognize this as if it was a common typo, and replace >>> the 9 with a g, making the word: >>> >>> logging, >>> >>> which happens to be a validly spelled English word. >>> >>> >>> Since they now aday do propetary stencilized OCR, they also can perform >>> recognition of hand-writing. At least, to a certain degree. Simply by >>> attempting to recognize the shape and general makeup of the lines on >>> the >>> paper, the OCR will conclude that your droddle "pretty much looks like" >>> a given character. By correcting the software whenever it performs the >>> wrong recognition, it eventually will "learn" the style of your >>> hand-writing. Such correction is what is known as >>> >>> training the software. >>> >>> >>> Hope all of this was of any help and interest to you, or others. >>> >>> David >>> >>> On 11/28/2017 6:23 PM, Robert Ringwald via Talk wrote: >>>> I do not have a smart phone. In order to use the KNFB program to just >>>> read PDF's on the computer, do I need a camera? Or can it be done >>>> internally within the computer? >>>> >>>> Windows 10. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob Ringwald piano, Solo, Duo, Trio, Quartet, Quintet >>>> Fulton Street Jazz Band (Dixieland/Swing) >>>> 916/ 806-9551 >>>> Check out my performing schedule: www.ringwald.com/schedule.php >>>> Amateur (ham) Radio Station K6YBV >>>> >>>> “If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, >>>> if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.” -- Mark Twain >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >>>> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >>>> >>>> For membership options, visit >>>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. >>>> >>>> >>>> For subscription options, visit >>>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>>> List archives can be found at >>>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of >>> the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >>> >>> For membership options, visit >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/rs%40ringwald.com. >>> For subscription options, visit >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>> List archives can be found at >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of >>> the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >>> >>> For membership options, visit >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/jhud7789%40twc.com. >>> For subscription options, visit >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>> List archives can be found at >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/tom.kingston%40charter.net. >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. 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