Hi Everyone, I’d like to respond to the concern about Kaart in this thread. I am responsible for the editing teams at Kaart and take responsibility for their actions.
We try to coordinate and communicate with editors in countries that we are editing data in, it is at times difficult to keep track of all the locations and editors globally and in this instance we slipped up and didn’t communicate well enough. We are working to improve that now both in Panama and elsewhere. I have asked Jorge, who lives in Guatemala City and works with Kaart, to assist with understanding what we can all do to further uplift data in Panama and the surrounding countries. We care about the data and routinely monitor and maintain the data to make sure it is as good as it can be, which is what initiated this conversation. Regarding the data in Panama, we drove through much of Panama in 2015 (I personally did) and contributed improvements through visual verification of road signs, roadway geometry, etc. You can find all the images in Mapillary by filtering for “kaartcam” in Panama. Our editors debated and tried to make sense of the OSM wiki and edit the data applicable to Panama the best we could, without a local community of editors to guide us. This was also pre-"Directed Editing Guidelines” and so we were doing our best with what was available at the time. In addition, we were adding in loads of shops/business to Panama with the hope that local editors would notice and carry the data forward beyond what we could do (a reason to upload imagery to Mapillary). That has had mixed results and we now don’t edit shops/businesses very much. I hope this helps clarify some of the confusion and we are happy to assist in improvements as always. ~Aaron. > On Feb 5, 2020, at 1:06 PM, talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: > > Send talk mailing list submissions to > talk@openstreetmap.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: it's not a fake, but "it's complicated" (Mario Frasca) > 2. Re: it's not a fake, but "it's complicated" (Andy Townsend) > 3. Re: it's not a fake, but "it's complicated" (Mario Frasca) > 4. Re: MWG needs some customizations in CiviCRM (michael spreng) > 5. Re: it's not a fake, but "it's complicated" - fake building > for several shops inside one building (marc marc) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 12:18:01 -0500 > From: Mario Frasca <ma...@anche.no> > To: talk@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated" > Message-ID: <6be62b91-17ea-c6a9-68b3-bb3d4a3df...@anche.no> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 05/02/2020 11:53, Andy Townsend wrote: >> it can sometimes be difficult to decide where one building ends and >> the next starts > > sometimes, sometimes it's clear. sometimes you walk in the area, you > see the façade and you wonder how they can know the name of the shop and > not have seen it's three shops in the same building, nor take note of > what kind of shop it is. > >> the whole Avenida B in Panamá has buildings which have been split like >> this. I have personally checked that in cases, a single building was >> split in three slices. I did not fix it. >> > since then I fixed a few, but I do not plan continuing to do so. I don't > come too often to Panama City. I signaled it two months ago to Kaart > (via Vigo) and I hope they will indeed "improve future edits made by > Kaart", in the meanwhile, not having seen any activity from them, and > since they're now editing an other aspect, again without consulting with > the local community, I moved to adding a 'fixme' tag to their most > obvious mistakes. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:24:23 +0000 > From: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> > To: talk@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated" > Message-ID: <eadd59f9-9085-1483-494c-1a6b6907e...@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > > On 05/02/2020 17:15, Dave F via talk wrote: >> On 05/02/2020 15:45, Mario Frasca wrote: >>> hi all, >>> >>> I am in no position to take care of the amount of instances of this >>> practice, and fix them >> >> You shouldn't be expected to. Contributors who make errors should fix >> them. > > Agreed. I've forwarded the previous email to the DWG to create a ticket > so that we can chase it up from there. > > >> >>> I've signalled it to their editors, or to their leaders, but >>> apparently when an activity is closed, it's too late to ask them to >>> review. >> >> This sounds dodgy. >> >> Who & how did you contact them? If a Public forum, could you post a >> link? if email, could you copy paste exactly the replies to you? >> > (again at the risk of sounding like a broken record) I'd recommend > trying to make these comments in public, via changeset discussion > comments so that: > > * It's clear what the problem is, and which change actually introduced > the problem. > * Other mappers who encounter the data or who look at services like > http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=61942 can > also see the problem > > Best Regards, > > Andy > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20200205/c126261c/attachment-0001.htm> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 12:28:40 -0500 > From: Mario Frasca <ma...@anche.no> > To: talk@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated" > Message-ID: <e4f6bab3-c09a-f877-67fa-ba618d074...@anche.no> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > On 05/02/2020 12:15, Dave F via talk wrote: >> Who & how did you contact them? If a Public forum, could you post a >> link? if email, could you copy paste exactly the replies to you? > > not a public forum, I wrote to VigotheCarpatian as an openstreetmap > message, here's some of it: > > myself, on 2019-12-06 19:31 > >> Hi Vigo, thank you for replying, this is one changeset where I commented >> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35874422 >> >> that’s just an example, but not at all an isolated case. what I’ve >> been seeing here in Panama (the country) is that Kaart people in 2015 >> have been mapping individual commercial enterprises as separate buildings. >> >> two examples, in Chorrera and in Panama. >> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/385343944 >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/382714337 >> >> the whole Avenida B in Panamá has buildings which have been split like >> this. I have personally checked that in cases, a single building was >> split in three slices. I did not fix it. >> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/384068371/history >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> also, please, don’t leave junk behind, like |source_1|, |shop=yes|, or >> even putting a building in Panamá, and writing |addr:city=Santa Ana|. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> one more mistake is relative to mapping landuse:retail as >> landuse:commercial, possibly because of the false friend Spanish >> “centro comercial”. (example: >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/385055420/history) >> >> there’s very few editors in Panamá, megabytes are expensive, we can’t >> afford neither the workload nor the bandwidth to fix this, so I’m >> trying to have things fixed upstream, that is, from Kaart. >> > you already have Vigo's answer, on 2019-12-06 23:04: > >> Hi Mario, thank you for all the information and feedback on the work >> done in Panama. I have informed the team and we will use the >> information you gave us to improve future edits made by Kaart. Thanks >> again for reaching out to us. >> > to which I answered, 2019-12-07 14:23 > >> I’m happy you will use the information I gave you, but it is relevant >> that you’re speaking in plural form, that’s for the Kaart >> organization. Since you’re speaking for a group, where the group edits >> in an organized way in an area where there is a community of mappers, >> that puts your group (Kaart) in the position where you should consider >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing_Guidelines. >> >> Please do that for the future, I insist. And if you have any current >> activity regarding Panamá, it’s not too late to inform the local >> community via the wiki. >> >> As for the “… to improve future edits”, well, that’s nice, but what >> about what your editors left behind? I’m glad you reverted to >> unclassified that unclassified you had tagged as track, but there’s >> more drops in the sea. What about organizing a review of your past >> edits, involving the local community? >> > and I got the reaction, 2019-12-09 17:10 > >> Hello Mario, here is the wiki page of projects and places that Kaart >> are working in. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kaart >> > which did not and still does not mention Panama at all. > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20200205/31cdec44/attachment-0001.htm> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 20:54:48 +0100 > From: michael spreng <t...@osm.datendelphin.net> > To: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com> > Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] MWG needs some customizations in CiviCRM > Message-ID: > <f0662194-495f-25da-bff2-7aa5dcb2a...@osm.datendelphin.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On 26/01/2020 15:28, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> what about multiple OpenStreetMap userIDs controlled by the same user? Our >> current guidelines actively encourage the creation of multiple logins/users. >> >> Cheers Martin > > Hi Martin > > That is a good point that hasn't occurred to me yet. However I have > difficulties imagining a use case. We recommend multiple accounts mostly > in two cases: privacy and for separating automated edits. If you do it > for privacy, then better not link them together via the membership > registry. The registry is not public, but can be inspected by members. I > would rather not make the software more complicated for a rare case > which can be handled manually by the MWG. But that is just my opinion. > We will keep it in mind in any case. > > Just to make it clear: even with this planned automation, you can always > submit your case for manual review. > > Michael > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 20:06:44 +0000 > From: marc marc <marc_marc_...@hotmail.com> > To: "talk@openstreetmap.org" <talk@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated" - fake > building for several shops inside one building > Message-ID: > > <pr1pr06mb580128ad3be671958e52a68db7...@pr1pr06mb5801.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello, > >> I've now moved to tagging as many of them them as 'fixme' > > nice to highlight the issue. > but why not fixing it ? > remove the building tag for every fake building object, > add the building on the whole outer back. > josm contourmerge pluging can do that easily. > or, of course, contact DWG if the mapper don't try to fix his errors. > > any changeset comment about this ? > > Regards, > Marc > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > > ------------------------------ > > End of talk Digest, Vol 186, Issue 9 > ************************************ _______________________________________________ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
