Yessir, I'd say that with all the access to music and video and the ease there is in acquiring it, it would be impossible to really lay it down like what we call "the traditionalists". But I gotta keep reminding myself that these "traditionalists" were doing their own thing way back then and not following the path already taken. Same old same old, as they say. Nothing new in the world. Just new faces repeating the same process I guess.
What I refer to is that I hear more people playing *at* the old sound of OT than I do the old sound of bluegrass. I don't necessarily agree that bluegrass is/was a music for high-falootin technicians, that it was a performance music, though I do see the reason for the argument. And sure, there are a quite a few current examples of OT bands accentuating the poor technical skills aged musicians displayed once they were rediscovered, but damn, they were way past their prime, they were old. I recall hearing quite a few very accomplished OT players in the collection of recordings I have here, some far surpassing the so- called spit and polish of bluegrassers. I reckon the point is that we're all just trying to play and communicate as best we can at whatever stage of the game we're in, be it young, old, in between, or whatever. It would be interesting to me to see a list of all the more major influences we all have as a group, but then that's bordering on a research project. I also keep wondering at what point will there be an unofficial line drawn when we reach the point where it's humanly impossible to "put more in"? What then? TBug On Jan 5, 7:44 pm, erik berry <[email protected]> wrote: > I gots three paragraphs of thoughts on this subject... > > When I was a teenager and an electric guitar player, many of these > same arguments existed in rock, blues, heavy metal and jazz---speed > vs. soul, is generally how it was summed up. I had a handful of > teachers in different genres and they all emphasized the soul and the > way they did it was to have me sing guitar solos off of records. If I > had to make a more nonsensical turkey call sound, it was speed, if I > could sing the solo, it was soul. Examples they had me pursue were the > guitar breaks in Stairway to Heaven, Sunshine of Your Love, Fairies > Wear Boots...solos I think I could still scat sing today. When I was a > teenager, it was the '80s and metal guitar was the rage and it was all > about flash. In my raggedy high school band I couldn't do that stuff > so I tried a more melodic approach and found it was successful too. > But, of course, a big 'ol whammy bar dive coupled with digital delay > and wah-wah really brought the house down (if that is all technical > jargon to you, let's just say I'd use some electric and mechanical > tricks to make a big obnoxious noise <g>). My jazz instructors had me > listen to horn players, because horn players need to take breaths. If > you try to talk without breathing you lose power, same with playing a > solo on a horn. Because string players can take a breath while they > play, they are more likely to lay down a nonstop barrage of notes, but > it's not natural, human power. That comes from breathing and it's good > to have "breaths" in your solo. > > In my band's van we used to compare the Jerusalem Ridge by Baker and > Monroe with the one the Tony Rice Unit put out. the TRU is a great > example of improvising away from the melody while still keeping the > shape of the song, but generally the way we'd wind up listening is the > TRU version first, then before the third round of solos, which were > the most outside, we'd put on the original. "I like the melody," we'd > say. "And I like the banjo part too," someone would generally add... > > Finally, my band plays loud rock-like string music and our audiences > get a little rowdy. I love playing the melody but I also like using > flashy, aggressive breaks, sort of mandolin versions of the big > obnoxious noise mentioned above. Lemme tell you, that if I have a > successful flashy break and the crowd eats it up, they yell for more > and it's hard to not be tempted to try it again on the next tune. > Temptation is a powerful thing. But it has been my experience that > somtimes those great "out of body" mandolin experiences do happen and > I'll improvise a melodic, yet inventive solo that complements the tune > and showcases that I have some technique under my belt and <everybody> > seems to like that. And if I'm very, very lucky, I can do that once a > gig. Just once. It's so hard, but boy, it feels good when it happens > and that's what I keep trying for. > > Anyway, that's what I got for the discussion, although I might add > this on the subject of traditional bluegrass then and now. It seems to > me that even if you're not trying to use it, doesn't awareness of > modern stuff make it hard to be as traditional? What I mean is, can > you really play like it's 1945 if you've heard Metallica, Moby, and > Madonna on someone's Ipod during the last 15 minutes? > > erik > > On Jan 5, 6:31 pm, Tud Jones <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Since this topic seems to be (d)evolving into a bit of a comparison > > of BG and OT styles, traditions, vitality etc, I thought I'd toss my > > nickel into the kitty...To me, the main thing that impacts how a > > musician will interpret a traditional music is what that player thinks > > is most important about that tradition or what touches them the most > > about it. This could be a variety of many things...technique, > > politics, gender, popular culture, class, religion, ego, need/want to > > make a living, soul, sound, what is going to attract that nice > > lookin' boy or girl in the corner, etc etc...Folks will preserve the > > things most important to them or the things that satisfy their > > preconceived notion about a music or culture is all about. A few > > opinions and thoughts... > > While I highly respect the technique of Bruce Molsky, to me as a > > listener, technique is the part of old time fiddling that he found to > > be most important. He's obviously done his homework on the complex > > bowing involved in some Southern styles. He also has wonderful > > intonation. I think that his bow technique and great intonation has > > been inspiring to lots of younger musicians like Alex, Tatiana and > > others who come to OT music from a classical background. To me, the > > new tradition being focused on is based on impeccable chops and that > > is one of the points emphasized in the initial post in this thread. I > > think contemporary bluegrass has the same priorities. Bluegrass has > > always been about outstanding picking and singing but recent > > generations focus more and more on flawless skills. It makes me wonder > > if bluegrass could go down the same road that jazz did. Jazz began as > > a vernacular music and became a new form of American classical music. > > In the beginning you learned jazz on the streets, brothels and > > speakeasy night clubs. Now you learn it in college. Bluegrass still > > has some street credibility as hillbilly music (I use that term with > > the utmost respect) but it too is beginning to show up in college. > > Topher mentions in his post a workshop leader who mentioned that > > "Old-time music was primarily music for dancing to and for > > participating in, and that bluegrass was primarily a musical form that > > showcased the musicians in a concert setting". I'll agree with > > portions of that statement and argue for some other perspectives. I > > think that nowadays OT music is primarily for dancing and > > participating in but that approach to the music and culture of OT > > music is dates to the 1960's and '70s rather than the 1860's-'70s. Tom > > Carter (formerly of the Fuzzy Mountain String Band) has a wonderful > > essay called "Looking for Henry Reed" that describes the new approach > > and aesthetic that the Hollow Rock String Band had. They started the > > "everybody play the melody" approach so common now. Alan Jabbour > > himself wrote that the focus is on the music and the social > > integration of the players and dancers as a group and not the > > musicians as individuals. No individual would take a solo. This > > "festival style" approach to playing OT music is what dominates the > > scene today in my opinion. There are few folks out and about playing > > OT music as you might have heard on a pre-war commercial recording. > > Those records had lots of variety in instruments and > > approaches...Wonderful singing instead of the current OT approach of > > bellowing the tune out in unison. The older bands were also > > polyrythmic (African influence) in their band styles rather than the > > current unison (European influence) approach. > > As to bluegrass, it was definitely an elite-level, performance based > > music played by professionals at the beginning. Today, any stroll into > > the campground at the fester will show bluegrass alive as a true folk > > music with lots of non professional pickers at all levels from rank > > beginner to powerful.
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