texascavers Digest 8 Dec 2009 19:54:17 -0000 Issue 906

Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:54:27 -0800 (PST) 

texascavers Digest 8 Dec 2009 19:54:17 -0000 Issue 906

Topics (messages 12827 through 12844):

OT - tech news
        12827 by: David

Re: "official report"
        12828 by: Rod Goke
        12831 by: Louise Power
        12836 by: Rod Goke

Re: Ed Alexander Memorial Report and Photos
        12829 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Work Session
        12830 by: Ron Ralph

Public domain free USGS News rmaps
        12832 by: caverarch.aol.com
        12833 by: Mark Minton
        12842 by: Louise Power
        12844 by: caverarch.aol.com

Bermuda cave research story
        12834 by: David

a cave diving story
        12835 by: David

Re: "official report" a little OT
        12837 by: Gill Edigar

USGS topo downloads
        12838 by: Mixon Bill
        12840 by: caverarch.aol.com

cave-diving photos
        12839 by: Mixon Bill

Re: [greater_houston_grotto] Re: [Texascavers] USGS topo downloads
        12841 by: caverarch.aol.com

Mapping and Mexico
        12843 by: caverarch.aol.com

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is a vending machine that rents laptops:

     http://www.laptopsanytime.com/images/product-pic-right.jpg

A caver could start a free-lance type business operating a few of these
around town, at places like: hospital waiting rooms,
auto-repair shop waiting rooms, medical offices that have large patient
waiting rooms, hotels, bowling alleys, on cruise ships, at tourist resorts,
large country clubs, casinos, Fedex copy stores, at convenient stores like
Buc-ee's gas station, truck stops, fast-food chains, etc.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
When somebody says to the public, "Wait for the official report," he might be 
trying to avoid answering annoying questions while he works to prepare the 
official report.

When somebody says to witnesses, "Don't talk to the public before we release 
the official report," he most likely fears that the witnesses will say 
something inconsistent with what he intends to write in the report. Perhaps he 
fears that witnesses will reveal some truth he wishes to keep secret, or 
perhaps he just fears that conflicting witness statements will make his 
official report appear sloppy and inaccurate. Whatever the motivation, this 
kind of "gag order" or "gag request" directed at witnesses smells of censorship 
and coverup, and is quite different from asking the public to wait for an 
official report.

Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
>Sent: Dec 6, 2009 9:43 AM
>To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
>Subject: [Texascavers] "official report"
>
>When somebody says, "Wait for the official report," he might just be  
>trying to avoid answering the same stupid question fifty times. Not  
>necessarily a cover-up. -- Mixon
>----------------------------------------
>Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
>----------------------------------------
>You may "reply" to the address this message
>came from, but for long-term use, save:
>Personal: [email protected]
>AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Any lawyer will tell you that "eye witnesses" make the worst witnesses. You can 
show ten people the same incident and probably have ten different descriptions 
of said incidents. Frankly, I'd quit making such a big deal out of this. I 
doubt there's any coverup afoot, just an effort to get to the truth--whatever 
it is.

 

 
> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 03:49:46 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> CC: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] "official report"
> 
> When somebody says to the public, "Wait for the official report," he might be 
> trying to avoid answering annoying questions while he works to prepare the 
> official report.
> 
> When somebody says to witnesses, "Don't talk to the public before we release 
> the official report," he most likely fears that the witnesses will say 
> something inconsistent with what he intends to write in the report. Perhaps 
> he fears that witnesses will reveal some truth he wishes to keep secret, or 
> perhaps he just fears that conflicting witness statements will make his 
> official report appear sloppy and inaccurate. Whatever the motivation, this 
> kind of "gag order" or "gag request" directed at witnesses smells of 
> censorship and coverup, and is quite different from asking the public to wait 
> for an official report.
> 
> Rod
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Dec 6, 2009 9:43 AM
> >To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
> >Subject: [Texascavers] "official report"
> >
> >When somebody says, "Wait for the official report," he might just be 
> >trying to avoid answering the same stupid question fifty times. Not 
> >necessarily a cover-up. -- Mixon
> >----------------------------------------
> >Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
> >----------------------------------------
> >You may "reply" to the address this message
> >came from, but for long-term use, save:
> >Personal: [email protected]
> >AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> >For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> >
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You never know whether different witnesses will give similar or different descriptions of an incident until you let them talk. In an effort to "get to the truth-whatever it is", what sources of information are there other than witnesses and physical evidence? When witnesses are told not to talk and when physical evidence is destroyed or sealed where no one can examine it, how do you expect people to get to the truth?

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Louise Power
Sent: Dec 7, 2009 12:18 PM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] "official report"

Any lawyer will tell you that "eye witnesses" make the worst witnesses. You can show ten people the same incident and probably have ten different descriptions of said incidents. Frankly, I'd quit making such a big deal out of this. I doubt there's any coverup afoot, just an effort to get to the truth--whatever it is.
 
 
> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 03:49:46 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> CC: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] "official report"
>
> When somebody says to the public, "Wait for the official report," he might be trying to avoid answering annoying questions while he works to prepare the official report.
>
> When somebody says to witnesses, "Don't talk to the public before we release the official report," he most likely fears that the witnesses will say something inconsistent with what he intends to write in the report. Perhaps he fears that witnesses will reveal some truth he wishes to keep secret, or perhaps he just fears that conflicting witness statements will make his official report appear sloppy and inaccurate. Whatever the motivation, this kind of "gag order" or "gag request" directed at witnesses smells of censorship and coverup, and is quite different from asking the public to wait for an official report.
>
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Dec 6, 2009 9:43 AM
> >To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
> >Subject: [Texascavers] "official report"
> >
> >When somebody says, "Wait for the official report," he might just be
> >trying to avoid answering the same stupid question fifty times. Not
> >necessarily a cover-up. -- Mixon
> >----------------------------------------
> >Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
> >----------------------------------------
> >You may "reply" to the address this message
> >came from, but for long-term use, save:
> >Personal: [email protected]
> >AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> >For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
 
All,
 
 
Rick Corbell was gracious enough to send me a short report and some photos from 
Ed's memorial service this past Saturday.
 
If anyone else has any photos, thoughts, comments, or a report that they would 
like to submit for use in the next TC, please do so.
 
 
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Mark

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Cavers,

 

There will be a scheduled second Wednesday work session of the Texas
Speleological Survey December 9th at the JJ Pickle Research Center on Burnet
Road north of highway 183. We will work on the oversized flat map files and
try to get another batch ready for a copy session at Texas Parks and
Wildlife Department. We will continue to update electronic files and maybe
scan and clean a few regular sized maps.  Come by and see if you would like
to organize one of our cave rich counties.

 

Both publication sales and the library will be open. If you attend, you will
also be able to work on your own projects as well.  The door will be open at
5:00 p.m. and stay open till we adjourn. The TSS office phone is 475-8802 if
you get lost or stopped by the guard. Remember it is best to arrive before
6:00 pm, or the gate guards might not let you in!  If you have questions or
problems, please contact me at  <mailto:[email protected]>
[email protected] or the office manager, Jim Kennedy. Please go to
<http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/tsscalendar.htm>
http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/tsscalendar.htm for additional
information.

 

Ron Ralph

Cell: 797-3817

Map to the place is at: http://www.utexas.edu/maps/prc/ On PRC map 2 ("NW
Area"), 18-A is the little building just above the "ra" in "Granberry". Park
to the south in the PETEX lot across the street (Read Granberry Trail) from
building 18-A

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Posted in the Texas canoeing list.



-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Kulawiec 
To: 
Sent: Fri, Dec 4, 2009 1:03 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: For all topo map fan out there USGS News release  re new map 
program


Every USGS topo map is available for download free via Libremap:    
http://libremap.org/A lot of people worked very hard to make this (public 
domain) dataavailable to the public, so if you find it useful, you might 
considerthrowing a coin or two their way.  (I've got no involvement withthis 
project other than as a very satisfied user.)---Rsk

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- This is nice to know, but a little late to be really necessary. Unlike those of many countries, U. S. topo maps have never been copyrighted and are available in the public domain, but the USGS itself did not host them on the web. Most states have some agency or university that has USGS topo maps for specific areas freely available on their web sites. For instance Texas topos are available at <http://www.tnris.state.tx.us/datadownload/download.jsp> and New Mexico at <http://sar.lanl.gov/topo_maps/>. Recently, however, the USGS themselves finally put up all of their maps, so there is no longer a need for any outside hosts. Go to <http://seamless.usgs.gov/index.php>. If only Mexico would do the same! 

Mark Minton

At 04:52 PM 12/7/2009, [email protected] wrote:

Posted in the Texas canoeing list.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Kulawiec
To:
Sent: Fri, Dec 4, 2009 1:03 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: For all topo map fan out there USGS News release re new map program 

Every USGS topo map is available for download free via Libremap:

    http://libremap.org/

A lot of people worked very hard to make this (public domain) data
available to the public, so if you find it useful, you might consider
throwing a coin or two their way.  (I've got no involvement with
this project other than as a very satisfied user.)

---Rsk


You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Mark Minton said: "If only Mexico would do the same!"
 
I put this address up once before a couple of years ago, but in case you missed 
it, you can get free Mexico maps at this address:
 
http://www.maps-of-mexico.com/
 
It has over 4000 maps. You can get maps of the largest cities and each of the 
31 states. They are divided into smaller maps, so you can print them easily. 
 
Happy travel.
 
Louise

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
And other states such as Tennessee have their topos on TNRIS-like sites, as 
well.  But it's good to get map source discussion going occasionally, because 
new stuff turns up.  For example, I have not seen a world-wide map index such 
as this one posted to TAG-NET by Jeremy Spiers in a string of responses to my 
forward from Canoe Tex:


<<8)  topos      By: Jeremy Spiers  (Knoxville, Tennessee)       A lot of 
people have responded with good links, but I find this linkindispensable for 
online research of topos, maps, and aerial 
photographyhttp://mapper.acme.com/Locations can be found by address or 
coordinates, using mostcoordinate systemsGood stuff!Cheers!JS>>


Roger Moore


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:52 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Public domain free USGS News rmaps


         This is nice to know, but a little late to be really necessary.  
Unlike those of many countries, U. S. topo maps have never been copyrighted and 
are available in the public domain, but the USGS itself did not host them on 
the web.  Most states have some agency or university that has USGS topo maps 
for specific areas freely available on their web sites.  For instance Texas 
topos are available at <http://www.tnris.state.tx.us/datadownload/download.jsp> 
and New Mexico at <http://sar.lanl.gov/topo_maps/>.  Recently, however, the 
USGS themselves finally put up all of their maps, so there is no longer a need 
for any outside hosts.  Go to <http://seamless.usgs.gov/index.php>.  If only 
Mexico would do the same! 
 
Mark Minton 
 
At 04:52 PM 12/7/2009, [email protected] wrote: 
>Posted in the Texas canoeing list. 
> 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: Rich Kulawiec 
>To: 
>Sent: Fri, Dec 4, 2009 1:03 pm 
>Subject: Re: Fwd: For all topo map fan out there USGS News release >re new map 
>program 
> 
>Every USGS topo map is available for download free via Libremap: 
> 
>     http://libremap.org/ 
> 
>A lot of people worked very hard to make this (public domain) data 
>available to the public, so if you find it useful, you might consider 
>throwing a coin or two their way.  (I've got no involvement with 
>this project other than as a very satisfied user.) 
> 
>---Rsk 
 
You may reply to [email protected] 
Permanent email address is [email protected]  
--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] 
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Below is a portion of the article in the link that is posted below:


The geological history of Bermuda coupled with biological
evidence indicates a strong possibility for the presence of
"deepwater caves" near the island.

[ deepwater, meaning cave entrances under more than 150 feet of water ]

In order to gain further insight into the origin, evolution and
distribution of life in submarine caves, it is necessary to first
discover these deep water caves, and then investigate their nature and
the possible relationships between shallow water cave fauna and (as
yet undiscovered) animals from deep water caves.

Through a three-step approach, a series of expeditions will explore
the seas surrounding Bermuda to search for deep water caves.

First, multi-beam sonar will be used to survey the area and create a
high-resolution map of the sea floor. Investigators will look for cave
entrances directly, as well as indirect indicators of the cave
presence (schools of fish, plumes of “shimmering water”).

The second step will involve a remotely operated vehicle (ROV) to
investigate sites identified by the multi-beam.

Finally, divers using mixed gas rebreathers will locate and
investigate deep water caves. The specific goals of this exploration
are to characterize the natural history of the Bermuda platform,
discover deep water cave habitats, determine the origin and age of
such caves, and observe and collect deep water cave fauna for
comparison with species inhabiting Bermuda's shallow caves.

Ref:

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/09bermuda/welcome.html

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is an interesting trip report from a recent cave-diving trip:

      http://karstunderwaterresearch.org/projects/twin_dees.asp

For those, who don't have time to read it, here is an excerpt:

"This tunnel arced about 80 feet to the right and opened as a balcony
into another enormous room. We looked at each, not believing that
their could be two rooms this big; either one of these had already
made the once imposing Pleasure Dome seem like a broom closet."

On a related note,

If it is o.k. for cave-divers to work in pairs, do experienced cavers
in dry caves, feel safe
 with just 2 cavers on a trip?     I think the going rule is 4 cavers
preferred, minimum 3.   Right?
Or is that rule only for newbies ?     Is solo caving still considered
acceptable on deep or long expedition trips where a member has to
leave the cave team to return to the surface, or is that just one of
the exceptions to the rule of solo caving ?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Speaking of sealed documents, in a few years we'll be coming upon the 50th
anniversary of the sealing of the "official report" of the JFK assassination
(cover up) which we thought we'd never see. Will it make any difference?
What relationship will it have with the truth?
--Ediger

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Rod Goke <[email protected]> wrote:

> You never know whether different witnesses will give similar or different
> descriptions of an incident until you let them talk. In an effort to "get to
> the truth-whatever it is", what sources of information are there other than
> witnesses and physical evidence? When witnesses are told not to talk and
> when physical evidence is destroyed or sealed where no one can examine it,
> how do you expect people to get to the truth?
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- At least I figured out how to download an image of a topo map by name from http://libremap.org/, something I never came anywhere near figuring out at the official site http://seamless.usgs.gov/index.php. I guess the USGS is too smart for me. -- Mixon 
----------------------------------------
Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
For Texas cavers, make sure to visit the TNRIS site, as well.  


It has Texas topos and other cool stuff.  Something new (reminding me that I 
need to visit such sites frequently) is 0.5-meter resolution aerials of the all 
or most of the state.  (Sometimes things on TNRIS are a little less than 
intuitively simple, as well.)  Pretty small karst features will show up at that 
scale!  


I downloaded one quarter-quad, half-meter resolution image, but I couldn't open 
it in my antique Arc-View program.  But I could view it nicely by 
right-clicking and opening it with my Google Chrome browser.  (It makes 
Explorer crash.)  I would check Google Earth before going to the trouble of 
downloading lots of these images, but it might be worthwhile if you need a 
better aerial view of something on a particular quad.  Or it may be easy in a 
way I know nothing about


Roger Moore



-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Dec 8, 2009 9:55 am
Subject: [Texascavers] USGS topo downloads


At least I figured out how to download an image of a topo map by name from  
http://libremap.org/, something I never came anywhere near figuring out at the 
official site http://seamless.usgs.gov/index.php. I guess the USGS is too smart 
for me. -- Mixon 
---------------------------------------- 
Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more. 
---------------------------------------- 
You may "reply" to the address this message 
came from, but for long-term use, save: 
Personal: [email protected] 
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected] 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] 
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- There are a large number of photos of cave diving in Ordinskaya Cave, Russia, at 
http://picasaweb.google.ru/GoldenMedia.1/OrdinskayCave?feat=directlink
They are by Andry Bizyukin, whom some of you may remember from the 2008 TCR or the rebreather training week in Austin that October. Notice the ice floating on the surface of the water in some of the pictures. Brrr. 

An article by Andry in English on the cave is at
http://www.xray-mag.com/pdfs/articles/Adventure_OrdinskayaCave_10.pdf

--Bill Mixon
----------------------------------------
Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Dang!  I got so much into the aerial photo that I forgot to include the TNRIS 
web address:


http://www.tnris.state.tx.us/



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; 
[email protected]
Sent: Tue, Dec 8, 2009 11:55 am
Subject: [greater_houston_grotto] Re: [Texascavers] USGS topo downloads


  
    
                  

For Texas cavers, make sure to visit the TNRIS site, as well.  

It has Texas topos and other cool stuff.  Something new (reminding me that I 
need to visit such sites frequently) is 0.5-meter resolution aerials of the all 
or most of the state.  (Sometimes things on TNRIS are a little less than 
intuitively simple, as well.)  Pretty small karst features will show up at that 
scale!  

I downloaded one quarter-quad, half-meter resolution image, but I couldn't open 
it in my antique Arc-View program.  But I could view it nicely by 
right-clicking and opening it with my Google Chrome browser.  (It makes 
Explorer crash.)  I would check Google Earth before going to the trouble of 
downloading lots of these images, but it might be worthwhile if you need a 
better aerial view of something on a particular quad.  Or it may be easy in a 
way I know nothing about

Roger Moore

-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Dec 8, 2009 9:55 am
Subject: [Texascavers] USGS topo downloads

At least I figured out how to download an image of a topo map by name from  
http://libremap.org/, something I never came anywhere near figuring out at the 
official site http://seamless.usgs.gov/index.php. I guess the USGS is too smart 
for me. -- Mixon 
---------------------------------------- 
Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more. 
---------------------------------------- 
You may "reply" to the address this message 
came from, but for long-term use, save: 
Personal: [email protected] 
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected] 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] 
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


    
             
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Cool, Louise, thanks.


Speaking of maps and Mexico, I noticed that the North American weather map that 
came up on the TNRIS home page had a search function powered by Bing.  I have 
not tried this search engine yet, so I entered Laguna de Sanchez.  To my 
surprise, a pin icon appeared at what looks to be the right spot on the map.  I 
was impressed.


Roger Moore



-----Original Message-----
From: Louise Power <[email protected]>
To: Texas Cavers <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Dec 8, 2009 12:28 pm
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Public domain free USGS News rmaps


Mark Minton said: "If only Mexico would do the same!"
 
I put this address up once before a couple of years ago, but in case you missed 
it, you can get free Mexico maps at this address:
 
http://www.maps-of-mexico.com/
 
It has over 4000 maps. You can get maps of the largest cities and each of the 
31 states. They are divided into smaller maps, so you can print them easily. 
 
Happy travel.
 
Louise
                       =

--- End Message ---

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