texascavers Digest 26 Aug 2009 00:01:30 -0000 Issue 833

Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:01:40 -0700 (PDT) 

texascavers Digest 26 Aug 2009 00:01:30 -0000 Issue 833

Topics (messages 11829 through 11848):

Walking in Circles
        11829 by: Mark Minton

Re: 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion
        11830 by: Allan Cobb
        11845 by: Rod Goke
        11846 by: Stefan Creaser
        11847 by: Rod Goke

Box photos from ICS are now on line
        11831 by: Ernest Garza

Circling in the Guads
        11832 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net

wns action
        11833 by: Sam Young

film trailer
        11834 by: Greg Passmore
        11835 by: Herman Miller
        11836 by: Nico Escamilla

Labor Day Trip to Deep and Punkin Cave
        11837 by: Geary Schindel

Cub cave related
        11838 by: David
        11839 by: George Veni

Climbing Cave Entrances
        11840 by: Mark Minton

Cub Cave - part 2
        11841 by: David
        11842 by: Fritz Holt
        11843 by: Stefan Creaser

China contacts for a caving trip in late October?
        11844 by: Renee Skwara

Priest's Cave Presentation in Houston
        11848 by: caverarch.aol.com

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--- Begin Message --- 
Ever feel like you're walking in circles? Apparently it's hard not to.
Actually, what's hard is to walk in a straight line.
<http://www.rdmag.com/General-Sciences-Walk-in-Circles-Its-Natural/>

Mark Minton


Walk in circles? It's natural
Friday, August 21, 2009

TUEBINGEN, Germany (AP) - Ever feel that no matter how hard you try,
you're walking in circles? A preliminary study by European scientists
says that you are.

According to the study carried out using global positioning software,
the myth that people who try to walk a straight line find themselves
going in circles is actually true.

The study was carried out by researchers at the Max Planck Institute for
Biological Cybernetics and published in Thursday's edition of Current
Biology.

"What we found is that people really do walk in circles," the lead
researcher, Jan Souman, told The Associated Press this week.

He said that studies of nine people walking in the desert and in a
forest found that all tended to go in circles and/or veer from a
straight line if there was nothing to guide their way.

In the desert, Souman said two people were told to walk a straight line
during the day. While neither managed to go in a complete circle, they
both veered off from walking a straight line. The third walked at night,
by the light of the full moon, but when it was obscured by clouds he
made several turns, ending up in the direction he came.

In another test, six students were taken to a large but flat forest and
told to walk a straight line. Four of them walked under a cloudy sky
with the sun hidden from view by the trees and clouds. They all ended up
walking in circles despite thinking they were going straight.

The other two managed to stay fairly straight but Souman said that was
because the sun was out.

"The people who were walking in circles in the forest couldn't see the
sun," he said.

All nine walkers were tracked with GPS and their routes - straight,
circuitous or otherwise - were digitally mapped.

Like those in the desert, when the sun was out, the forest walkers were
able to stay on a straighter course.

However, put on a blindfold and ear plugs and "people did all kinds of
things," Souman said.

"One always went in circles. One went in a zigzag," he said. "It was
really hard to find a common denominator."

Souman said similar tests are being done using virtual reality with the
results, so far, showing that walkers "seemed to do the same thing in
the virtual forest, too."

As for why the tests have been done, Souman explained that the results,
along with future tests, will help map how the human brain sorts various
sensory stimuli from sight and hearing to help guide people.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Anything is possible.  Most problems can be solved by throwing money at them.  
However, my latest report is that the water is about the same level it was last 
year at the park.  Unless it gets much, much drier (how could that happen?), we 
will have plenty of water to play in and cool off in.

Allan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: [email protected] 
  To: [email protected] ; [email protected] 
  Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion


  Regarding washing, etc., water at TCR: how much would it cost to have a 
non-potable water truck or trailer placed at the site for hosing off, filling 
the hot tub, etc. if there is no flowing water at the time of the event?  Is 
that feasible? 


  Roger Moore

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I remember correctly, there was running water available in the restrooms, and there was a hose from that building to the cooking area, supplying water for dishwashing, hosing off, etc. If that's still available, I don't see any need for a water truck. Is there any reason to think that that water supply will not be available at TCR this year?

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
Sent: Aug 24, 2009 12:26 PM
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion

Regarding washing, etc., water at TCR: how much would it cost to have a non-potable water truck or trailer placed at the site for hosing off, filling the hot tub, etc. if there is no flowing water at the time of the event?  Is that feasible?

Roger Moore


-----Original Message-----
From: Fofo <[email protected]>
To: texascavers <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 11:19 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion

G'morning! 
 
Speaking of Tlaloc... Here's a short story that I like very much, from Paco Ignacio Taibo II, called "Tlaloc": 
 
http://tinyurl.com/l3tybz 
 
It's in Spanish. I couldn't find a translated version, but here's a Google translation: 
 
http:/tinyurl.com/lv3xbh 
 
Some things sound funny, but I guess that you can follow most of the story in English (it translated the name of a town, Los Tecomates, as "the gourds," and it definitely can't handle swear words and slang, but it's amusing to read "neither mothers" for "ni madres"). 
 
  - Fofo 
 
Allan Cobb wrote, on 24/8/09 8:12: 
> Oztotl says there will be at least some water. Oztotl has spoken with > Tlaloc and they are trying to work out a deal. 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* wesley s <mailto:[email protected]> 
> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ; 
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> 
> *Sent:* Monday, August 24, 2009 10:06 AM 
> *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion 
> > Yes but will there be water to swim in? If levels get too low all of 
> the flow out of that reservoir will go down that diversion channel 
> and not over the dam. Is there a river authority for the Medina? 
> Will they let it run dry or do they have to keep the river bed wet 
> for the fish and wildlife? 
> > Wes~ 
>  
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Surely we’re cavers and can wait ‘til we get home to clean off? Would save a 
bunch of hassle/TCR expense…

 

Stefan

 

From: Rod Goke [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 5:36 PM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion

 

If I remember correctly, there was running water available in the restrooms, 
and there was a hose from that building to the cooking area, supplying water 
for dishwashing, hosing off, etc. If that's still available, I don't see any 
need for a water truck. Is there any reason to think that that water supply 
will not be available at TCR this year?

 

Rod





-----Original Message----- 
From: [email protected] 
Sent: Aug 24, 2009 12:26 PM 
To: [email protected], [email protected] 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion 

Regarding washing, etc., water at TCR: how much would it cost to have a 
non-potable water truck or trailer placed at the site for hosing off, filling 
the hot tub, etc. if there is no flowing water at the time of the event?  Is 
that feasible? 

 

Roger Moore


-----Original Message-----
From: Fofo <[email protected]>
To: texascavers <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 11:19 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion

G'morning! 
 
Speaking of Tlaloc... Here's a short story that I like very much, from Paco 
Ignacio Taibo II, called "Tlaloc": 
 
http://tinyurl.com/l3tybz 
 
It's in Spanish. I couldn't find a translated version, but here's a Google 
translation: 
 
http:/tinyurl.com/lv3xbh 
 
Some things sound funny, but I guess that you can follow most of the story in 
English (it translated the name of a town, Los Tecomates, as "the gourds," and 
it definitely can't handle swear words and slang, but it's amusing to read 
"neither mothers" for "ni madres"). 
 
  - Fofo 
 
Allan Cobb wrote, on 24/8/09 8:12: 
> Oztotl says there will be at least some water. Oztotl has spoken with > 
> Tlaloc and they are trying to work out a deal. 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* wesley s <mailto:[email protected]> 
> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ; 
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> 
> *Sent:* Monday, August 24, 2009 10:06 AM 
> *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion 
> > Yes but will there be water to swim in? If levels get too low all of 
> the flow out of that reservoir will go down that diversion channel 
> and not over the dam. Is there a river authority for the Medina? 
> Will they let it run dry or do they have to keep the river bed wet 
> for the fish and wildlife? 
> > Wes~ 
>  
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mostly what we used that hose for last year was to clean off the cooking equipment that you and the other TCR cooks used. Are you suggesting that we skip that task this year, since you'd rather wait and clean everything after you get home?  ;-)

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Creaser
Sent: Aug 25, 2009 6:38 PM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion

Surely we’re cavers and can wait ‘til we get home to clean off? Would save a bunch of hassle/TCR expense…

 

Stefan

 

From: Rod Goke [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 5:36 PM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion

 

If I remember correctly, there was running water available in the restrooms, and there was a hose from that building to the cooking area, supplying water for dishwashing, hosing off, etc. If that's still available, I don't see any need for a water truck. Is there any reason to think that that water supply will not be available at TCR this year?

 

Rod



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
Sent: Aug 24, 2009 12:26 PM
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion

Regarding washing, etc., water at TCR: how much would it cost to have a non-potable water truck or trailer placed at the site for hosing off, filling the hot tub, etc. if there is no flowing water at the time of the event?  Is that feasible?

 

Roger Moore


-----Original Message-----
From: Fofo <[email protected]>
To: texascavers <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 11:19 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion

G'morning! 
 
Speaking of Tlaloc... Here's a short story that I like very much, from Paco Ignacio Taibo II, called "Tlaloc": 
 
http://tinyurl.com/l3tybz 
 
It's in Spanish. I couldn't find a translated version, but here's a Google translation: 
 
http:/tinyurl.com/lv3xbh 
 
Some things sound funny, but I guess that you can follow most of the story in English (it translated the name of a town, Los Tecomates, as "the gourds," and it definitely can't handle swear words and slang, but it's amusing to read "neither mothers" for "ni madres"). 
 
  - Fofo 
 
Allan Cobb wrote, on 24/8/09 8:12: 
> Oztotl says there will be at least some water. Oztotl has spoken with > Tlaloc and they are trying to work out a deal. 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* wesley s <mailto:[email protected]> 
> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ; 
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> 
> *Sent:* Monday, August 24, 2009 10:06 AM 
> *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion 
> > Yes but will there be water to swim in? If levels get too low all of 
> the flow out of that reservoir will go down that diversion channel 
> and not over the dam. Is there a river authority for the Medina? 
> Will they let it run dry or do they have to keep the river bed wet 
> for the fish and wildlife? 
> > Wes~ 
>  
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IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
ICS Box Photos can now be seen by clicking on the following link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/crrabon1/FinalICSBoxPictures02?feat=directlink


For Comments or questions please e-mail me at:    [email protected]

Ernie Garza

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 

Glad to hear there is science behind the circling path. 



Many classic stories, especially on Guadalupe Ridge.  A Special Spot is on the 
way back to Hunt Camp from Sentinal-Gunsight.  There are two little low knobs 
that, especially and night in the fog, that you tend to figure-eight around.  
About the third pass by an awfully familiar looking spot usually gives a 
heads-up, although at least on one occasion a bivouac 'till dawn was called 
upon.  You really feel stupid (at least I did) because you know that you are 
really close to your camp ----.  That was with Tom Meador. The dog found the 
way with no problem but did not come back and get us.  He sure was hungry when 
we finally arrived.  There are a whole bunch of other Texas, New Mexico, and 
Colorado Cvers that have similar stories from that same (and a few other) 
spots. 



Dirt Doc

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
The Center for Biological Diversity has posted an action page on white nose 
syndrome.  They are urging the Fish and Wildlife Service to take more action.

View it here:

http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/2167/t/5243/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=27802

....... Sam

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Just an update on our shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjyWTS_O7cM&feature=email

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Finally what Planet Earth: Caves should have been like.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Greg Passmore <[email protected]> wrote:

> Just an update on our shooting
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjyWTS_O7cM&feature=email
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Summer 2010? I cant wait a whole year to see it

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Herman Miller <[email protected]> wrote:

> Finally what Planet Earth: Caves should have been like.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Greg Passmore <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Just an update on our shooting
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjyWTS_O7cM&feature=email
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Labor Day Trip to Deep and Punkin Nature Perserve
September 5-7, 2009

Folks,

There will be a trip to the TCMA Deep and Punkin Nature Preserve over the Labor 
Day weekend.  There are about 12 openings for a trip hosted by the Bexar 
Grotto.  If you think you would like to go, please email me and I'll sign you 
up.  This will be a trip leader training trip also but cavers of all skill 
levels are welcome.  We will have a small work project but will also have a 
laid back weekend of caving and socializing.

If folks are interested, we can also do a group meal plan.

Attendance is by reservation only as we have a limit on the number of folks 
that can be on the property at one time.

There is a requested donation of $5 to offset the cost of maintaining the 
property.

We will also be dedicating the new composting toilet In honor of Carl Ponebshek 
who's donation won him the naming rights.  It will be known as Carl's 
Comfortable Crapper and Loo with a View (per Carl's request).

Geary Schindel
210-479-2151 home
210-326-1576 cell

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is a video of a rock-climber exiting the entrance at Cub Cave
near San Antonio.

The ending of the climb is quite impressive.

http://vodpod.com/watch/2046705-rock-climbing-thieving-texas-bastard-5-13-at-cub-cave-in-san-antonio-texas

Rupesh Chhagan is obviously a good climber.   According to the link
below, he operates an acupuncture
clinic in Austin.

I think the video maker,  Long Ta, did a good job.    The video looks
great on a big monitor.


My only comments are that if person were in a vertical entrance to a
cave and he chose to exit
using rock-climbing techniques instead of SRT, wouldn't he still be
caving ??    If so, then you have
to practice somewhere somehow, and this type of cave seems like an
appropriate one to
practice.   Many cavers climb out of pits without ascenders, in places
like the entrance drop of "Emerald
Sink," however, these caving decisions are usually based on what is
more practical, such as whether to
rig and follow a handline, or just to free-climb very cautiously.

I think what I am trying to say is that cavers need to draw the line
somewhere, when it comes to a bunch
of rock-climbers rigging and naming various bolted routes all over the
pits.    I don't recall ever hearing of
Cub Cave, so I don't know if this is a good place for cavers to
practice rock-climbing.



David Locklear


Ref:

http://www.medicalartsacupuncture.com/rupesh.htm

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Cub Cave is located in northern San Antonio in Stone Oak Park. It has the
largest cave entrance in Bexar County but beyond that it is small and crawly
with breakdown on one side and solid wall on the other. A few years ago a
fireman was hurt during rescue training. I looked at the area, saw where a
large rock had moved and potential for serious collapse (again, I'm not
referring the amphitheater-like entrance room but a dark zone that extends
into the breakdown floor). Rock climbers discovered the cave around 10 or 15
years ago. One rock climbing guide, published before it bought by the city,
advised on how to trespass to get to the cave. The city does not allow
climbing and removes anyone caught.

George

-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:03 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Cub cave related

Here is a video of a rock-climber exiting the entrance at Cub Cave
near San Antonio.

The ending of the climb is quite impressive.

http://vodpod.com/watch/2046705-rock-climbing-thieving-texas-bastard-5-13-at
-cub-cave-in-san-antonio-texas

Rupesh Chhagan is obviously a good climber.   According to the link
below, he operates an acupuncture
clinic in Austin.

I think the video maker,  Long Ta, did a good job.    The video looks
great on a big monitor.


My only comments are that if person were in a vertical entrance to a
cave and he chose to exit
using rock-climbing techniques instead of SRT, wouldn't he still be
caving ??    If so, then you have
to practice somewhere somehow, and this type of cave seems like an
appropriate one to
practice.   Many cavers climb out of pits without ascenders, in places
like the entrance drop of "Emerald
Sink," however, these caving decisions are usually based on what is
more practical, such as whether to
rig and follow a handline, or just to free-climb very cautiously.

I think what I am trying to say is that cavers need to draw the line
somewhere, when it comes to a bunch
of rock-climbers rigging and naming various bolted routes all over the
pits.    I don't recall ever hearing of
Cub Cave, so I don't know if this is a good place for cavers to
practice rock-climbing.



David Locklear


Ref:

http://www.medicalartsacupuncture.com/rupesh.htm

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
        David Locklear said:
I think what I am trying to say is that cavers need to draw the line somewhere, when it comes to a bunch 
of rock-climbers rigging and naming various bolted routes all over the pits.
In parts of the West where lava tubes are common, some had become favorite spots for rock climbers. Some tubes were heavily bolted with routes going up across the ceilings of the tubes. The climbers also left lots of unsightly white marks from the chalk they use on their hands. It got so bad in some areas that the federal agencies involved with land management (BLM, USFS) banned the practice. That was several years ago. I haven't heard much about it recently, so maybe it has become less common. 

Mark Minton


You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
My comments posted here yesterday about rock-climbers bolting routes
in Cub Cave, reached the climbing community in less than 24 hours.

One of them would like me to clarify my statement.    At the time of
writing that, it was just an opinion, on a topic that I am not
familiar with.  ( Could I have done that ? )

Would anybody with more knowledge on the subject be interested
replying to an e-mail I received?


But here are some more opinions,

1.  If authorities want to stop rock-climbers from entering caves,
what is to stop them from prohibiting
recreational cavers, or making it more difficult for speleologist ?

2.   I know that U.S. cavers have historically been very opposed to
bolting in caves, but you can't do this level of rock-climbing without
safety precautions.    I have heard of rumors of cavers permanently
bolting a pit for either redirecting the rope, or because of lack of a
safe tie-off point.    Some even have be rumored to use cordless
electric drills.

3.  I think my concern is that the large number of bolts that could
suddenly appear in a scenic cave.

4.  A  rock-climber having a fatality in a cave could show up in the
press as "spelunker dies."

5.   I hate to have to bring up the next statement, but it seems
necessary, for this topic.    We can't ignore Texas caving accident
history.    We have to try to prevent cave fatalities and cave rescues
from occurring.

6.   I do not know of any "rock-climber" dying in a Texas cave, or
having a major injury.

7.   I think it should be also noted, that rock-climbers try to use as
few bolts as possible, and that
cavers who are doing something called "bolt-climbing," use 3 or 4
times as many bolts on a route
up a wall.   ( I believe cavers fill in the drill holes after the
climb has been top-rigged or surveyed to
show that there is no more passage above.   That would be very
impractical in rock-climbing. ).

David Locklear
Fort Bend County Texas

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
David,

You make some good points.

Fritz

-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:52 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Cub Cave - part 2

My comments posted here yesterday about rock-climbers bolting routes in Cub 
Cave, reached the climbing community in less than 24 hours.

One of them would like me to clarify my statement.    At the time of
writing that, it was just an opinion, on a topic that I am not familiar with.  
( Could I have done that ? )

Would anybody with more knowledge on the subject be interested replying to an 
e-mail I received?


But here are some more opinions,

1.  If authorities want to stop rock-climbers from entering caves, what is to 
stop them from prohibiting recreational cavers, or making it more difficult for 
speleologist ?

2.   I know that U.S. cavers have historically been very opposed to
bolting in caves, but you can't do this level of rock-climbing without
safety precautions.    I have heard of rumors of cavers permanently
bolting a pit for either redirecting the rope, or because of lack of a
safe tie-off point.    Some even have be rumored to use cordless
electric drills.

3.  I think my concern is that the large number of bolts that could suddenly 
appear in a scenic cave.

4.  A  rock-climber having a fatality in a cave could show up in the press as 
"spelunker dies."

5.   I hate to have to bring up the next statement, but it seems
necessary, for this topic.    We can't ignore Texas caving accident
history.    We have to try to prevent cave fatalities and cave rescues
from occurring.

6.   I do not know of any "rock-climber" dying in a Texas cave, or
having a major injury.

7.   I think it should be also noted, that rock-climbers try to use as
few bolts as possible, and that
cavers who are doing something called "bolt-climbing," use 3 or 4 times as many 
bolts on a route
up a wall.   ( I believe cavers fill in the drill holes after the
climb has been top-rigged or surveyed to
show that there is no more passage above.   That would be very
impractical in rock-climbing. ).

David Locklear
Fort Bend County Texas

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--- Begin Message --- 
1) How do you tell the difference between a caver and a rock climber? I
can't remember having 'caver' tattooed on me anywhere (though I could
have been drunk at the time!).

2) No! *shock*!

3) Probably not, there would be plenty of stuff to tie the ropes too

4) Only if a) one could identify them as a rock climber (see 1), or b)
if cavers found them (and 1) and the body didn't just 'disappear'...

5) If they're rock climber fatalities who would care? Maybe we should
classify any dead caver as a rock climber?

6) Not one who has identified themselves as such :-P

7) Maybe cavers need to take some tips from rock climbers and use less
bolts/learn to climb?

Is it Friday? Should rock climbers be otherwise known as "above ground
cavers"?

Stefan

Ps. If you don't think 'tongue in cheek' then send "Unsubscribe" to ...


-----Original Message-----
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:13 PM
To: David; Cavers Texas
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cub Cave - part 2

David,

You make some good points.

Fritz

-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:52 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Cub Cave - part 2

My comments posted here yesterday about rock-climbers bolting routes in
Cub Cave, reached the climbing community in less than 24 hours.

One of them would like me to clarify my statement.    At the time of
writing that, it was just an opinion, on a topic that I am not familiar
with.  ( Could I have done that ? )

Would anybody with more knowledge on the subject be interested replying
to an e-mail I received?


But here are some more opinions,

1.  If authorities want to stop rock-climbers from entering caves, what
is to stop them from prohibiting recreational cavers, or making it more
difficult for speleologist ?

2.   I know that U.S. cavers have historically been very opposed to
bolting in caves, but you can't do this level of rock-climbing without
safety precautions.    I have heard of rumors of cavers permanently
bolting a pit for either redirecting the rope, or because of lack of a
safe tie-off point.    Some even have be rumored to use cordless
electric drills.

3.  I think my concern is that the large number of bolts that could
suddenly appear in a scenic cave.

4.  A  rock-climber having a fatality in a cave could show up in the
press as "spelunker dies."

5.   I hate to have to bring up the next statement, but it seems
necessary, for this topic.    We can't ignore Texas caving accident
history.    We have to try to prevent cave fatalities and cave rescues
from occurring.

6.   I do not know of any "rock-climber" dying in a Texas cave, or
having a major injury.

7.   I think it should be also noted, that rock-climbers try to use as
few bolts as possible, and that
cavers who are doing something called "bolt-climbing," use 3 or 4 times
as many bolts on a route
up a wall.   ( I believe cavers fill in the drill holes after the
climb has been top-rigged or surveyed to
show that there is no more passage above.   That would be very
impractical in rock-climbing. ).

David Locklear
Fort Bend County Texas

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I am going to China in late October this year and have heard that there are
some amazing caves over there!!  If anyone knows of someone who lives in
China, in the caving community, that would know of any possibilites or have
information about visiting some caves while I am there; I am really
interested in getting in contact with them.  If you could send me their
contact information or any information.  I would greatly appreciate it!

Please contact me off the list at:
[email protected]
cell: 830-377-1814

Thanks!!

 Renee Skwara
Bexar Grotto Member

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Event in Houston in October:



http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=122780018060&ref=nf



This event's description: A Kristallnacht Memorial which will include a slide 
show presentation by American caver Chris Nicola about the "Priest's Grotto 
Story", an amazing story of how 38 Jews survived the Holocaust by taking refuge 
in a cave system in Ukrain...e for over 500 days. Following the show Chris will 
be available to sign copies of his book, "The Secret of Priest's Grotto".



Roger




 

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--- End Message ---

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