texascavers Digest 24 Feb 2009 15:41:45 -0000 Issue 715
Topics (messages 10228 through 10249):
Re: Center of the Caving Universe
10228 by: Preston Forsythe
10232 by: Alex Sproul
Some Kinda Soul
10229 by: Gill Ediger
Underground houses
10230 by: Gill Ediger
10233 by: Mixon Bill
10234 by: Philip L Moss
10239 by: Louise Power
10240 by: William Tucker
Re: Photos needed
10231 by: Alex Sproul
underground houses 2
10235 by: Gill Ediger
Re: underground horses 2
10236 by: Bill Bentley-Webmail
10237 by: germanyj.aol.com
UT Grotto spring break trip to Brinco cave
10238 by: sandi-calhoun.mail.utexas.edu
New caving group starting up in East Texas :
10241 by: jerryatkin.aol.com
10247 by: Kevin W Stafford
new caving club
10242 by: Mixon Bill
10243 by: germanyj.aol.com
10244 by: Geary Schindel
10249 by: Fritz Holt
Caving Club at SFA
10245 by: Mike Gross
10246 by: R D Milhollin
10248 by: Sheryl Rieck
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--- Begin Message ---
Many cavers in the DC area have received those awards over the decades.
Actual count.....who is counting?
Do we have any speleopoliticians in Washington,DC?
Preston Forsythe in outer Browder, KY
-----------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mixon Bill" <[email protected]>
To: "Cavers Texas" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 11:43 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Center of the Caving Universe
Austin as the Center of the Caving Universe department:
The National Speleological Society's highest awards to individuals are
the Honorary Membership and the Outstanding Service Award, each of which
is given to one person per year. The NSS Board of Governors selects the
recipient of these awards, and the award conveys life membership in the
society.
Next in status are four awards given to one person or couple per year.
They are selected by the NSS Awards Committee and confirmed by the BOG.
These awards are the Bicking Award for cave exploration (considered by
many cavers to be the highest award), the Conservation Award, the Science
Award, and the Spelean Arts and Letters Award.
Of these awards, cavers currently living in the Austin area have
received:
1 Honorary Membership
1 Outstanding Service Award
2 Bicking Awards
2 Conservation Awards
1 Science Award
1 Arts and Letters Award
Can any other city claim eight or more of these awards?
--Bill Mixon
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>Can any other city claim eight or more of these awards?
Probably the greater District of Columbia area, which is in fact one solid
mass of humanity, very densely caver-packed. You did say Austin "area,"
so DC should be comparable... ;^D
You get points for rooting for the home team, though.
Alex
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:30 AM 2/21/2009, John P. Brooks wrote:
....and love to go for a Saturday drive in the "country" on freeways
that trench a horrid scar across our beautiful karst....
As a pilot and geographer I've come to have a different aspect to freeways:
To me the Interstate Highway System and its associated networks are a
large--perhaps the world's largest--artistic sculpture--a sculpture
of plasticly formed grey concrete and shiningly smooth black asphalt,
with colorful lines and stripes painted to accent and highlight the
already flowing curves like a fine statue in marble. It has the long
sinuous lines of planned-randomness, smoothly curving and
interacting, interlacing lines, graceful curves at interchanges
passing through 3-dimensionsal layers like a giant weaving, the green
band of ditches that parallel the roadway and twist and torque as
they transition into overpasses at cross roads that run off like
tangents--winding or straight--connecting beautifully to the
interwoven landscape, following contours or blatently opposing them,
giant roadcuts that show the shapes and colors of the underlying
rocks like panoramic walls painted by nature. ...not a blight but a
great work of art.
And from the practical standpoint, they make getting there a lot easier.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:11 PM 2/22/2009, [email protected] wrote:
I know of several limestone quarry mines that have homes built in the face
It works out that the ground temperature in
Central Texas is about 5 or 6 months out of phase
with the atmospheric temperature--and it hovers
in the 68º to 70º range--quite nice for home
life. In the summer the ground temperature 15 or
20 feet down will be in the mid-60s, in the winter it'll be closer to 70.
About 20 or 25 years ago I designed a house which
could be built into a cave or mine or intentional
cut and fill site. Ostensibly you find a site on
a south-facing cliff or hill that allows for a 20
foot deep rectangular cut and bench. A concrete
arch is poured on the bench as a roof for the
"cave" providing a "chimney" of 4 or 5 feet
diameter to the surface above and that roof then
backfilled to a thickness of 5 or 6 feet, the
final top to be level with the original
topography. Then, inside that "cave" (now 15 feet
high) a conventional frame house is built on pier
and beam with 100% treated lumber, but no
external siding or insulation. No roof is needed
but a heavy plastic tent should be provided to
preclude water dripping onto the ceiling. The
inside (floors, walls, and ceiling) is first
carefully lined with heavy (say 20 mil) plastic
and caulked to prevent any moisture penetration
from the cave invironment, and then finished with
conventional flooring and drywall construction. And remember--no insulation.
That way the house is surrounded on 5 of its 6
sides by ambient cave air which can be
transferred to the inside of the house through the thin sheet-rock walls.
The 6th wall of the house is built directly under
the drip line and the rest of the opening rocked
in (to the upper surface level) with masonary as
creatively and esthetically as possible. A large
green house is built outside that south-facing
wall with operable ducting and vents leading into
each room of the house. That way, heat from the
green house can be used to warm the interior
should supplemental heat be wanted. The 'chimney'
will extend into the living area to provide
light; ducting from each room routed within it so
that a natural convective flow of warm air from
the green house can be turned on by simply
opening a damper or two--each room being separately adjustable.
A wood stove (and perhaps a hot tub) in the green
house can supply supplemental heat to that space
on cold winter nights. Or you can sleep with the dog.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dick Blenz once entertained the idea of building a house in the
Volcano Room in Buckners Cave, near Bloomington, Indiana. Up there is
makes some sense. While the cave humidity is the usual very high, the
cave temperature is about 56 F, so that when the modest amount of
heating is applied, you end up with a reasonably indoor humidity.
In Texas, humidity would be a problem. You can't use passive cooling
without an increase in humidity (which around here is pretty high
anyway in the summer). If you actually used air from deep cave, you'd
be living in near-100% humidity because you wouldn't be heating up the
air much if any. If you used outside air without an air-conditioner,
it would be positively dripping when cooled by the surrounding earth.
Auto and home air-conditioners overcool the air to wring the water out
of it before they blow it into your space. That's why cars in Texas
always seem to be leaking fluid.
--Mixon
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In addition to Mixon's criticisms, there is always the issue of alpha
radiation. All earth material tends to have some alpha radiation
emitters (often more simply and misleadingly called radon). The more
surfaces one has that are earth material (dirt, limestone, concrete), the
more fresh air ventilation one needs to have healthy air.
Is caving dangerous because of alpha radiation? In very few caves is it,
because none of us spends that much time in caves. There are some
western caves with some incredibly high alpha counts.
Is mining dangerous because of the 40-hour work week exposure. No,
because mines are ventilated with fresh air and the air quality is
monitored.
Is living underground without a lot of fresh air ventilation or even
cooling your home or business with cave air a health hazard? Yes.
Wait a minute, alpha radiation can't even penetrate your skin, so this is
all BS. No, because the vector is from breathing in particles that are
alpha emitters. Breathing in alpha emitters tends to produce lung
cancer. High humidity promotes mold growth and overexposure to mold can
cause other lung problems (personal experience and a visit to a
pulmonologist).
If such a home had any appliances, there would be waste heat that would
help (enough for the summertime??) decrease the relative humidity.
Natural thermal attenuation and moderation are wonderful things and this
email should not be construed to say that they are not worth pursuing.
However as with most things in life, the devil is in the details.
Philip L. Moss
[email protected]
____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your
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--- Begin Message ---
When I worked at Carlsbad Caverns NP, we were constantly monitored for our
radon exposure. Each crew worked in a progressively deeper part of the caverns,
then had to work on the surface for a period of time. Also our cave tech, Kay
Rohde, came through several times a day with her little air tester which would
suck in the air at different points in the cave and then she'd put her findings
into her results program to find out where radon was the highest (back of the
Big Room during the summer visitor peak, in case you were wondering). I don't
know if they still do that or not.
Louise
To: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:26:27 -0600
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] underground houses
In addition to Mixon's criticisms, there is always the issue of alpha
radiation. All earth material tends to have some alpha radiation emitters
(often more simply and misleadingly called radon). The more surfaces one has
that are earth material (dirt, limestone, concrete), the more fresh air
ventilation one needs to have healthy air.
Is caving dangerous because of alpha radiation? In very few caves is it,
because none of us spends that much time in caves. There are some western
caves with some incredibly high alpha counts.
Is mining dangerous because of the 40-hour work week exposure. No, because
mines are ventilated with fresh air and the air quality is monitored.
Is living underground without a lot of fresh air ventilation or even cooling
your home or business with cave air a health hazard? Yes.
Wait a minute, alpha radiation can't even penetrate your skin, so this is all
BS. No, because the vector is from breathing in particles that are alpha
emitters. Breathing in alpha emitters tends to produce lung cancer. High
humidity promotes mold growth and overexposure to mold can cause other lung
problems (personal experience and a visit to a pulmonologist).
If such a home had any appliances, there would be waste heat that would help
(enough for the summertime??) decrease the relative humidity.
Natural thermal attenuation and moderation are wonderful things and this email
should not be construed to say that they are not worth pursuing. However as
with most things in life, the devil is in the details.
Philip L. Moss
[email protected]
____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This discussion has caused me to remember an interesting graph I once saw where
someone carried a geiger counter around TX and NM.
I found it again, here: http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/vacation.html.
The graph itself is here:
http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/route/route.html.
Look at the peaks around Natural Bridge Caverns and the smaller one at Carlsbad
Caverns and maybe an even smaller one at Caverns of Sonora. The author claims
this might be due to Radon.
William
----- Original Message -----
From: Louise Power
To: Philip L Moss ; Texas Cavers
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] underground houses
When I worked at Carlsbad Caverns NP, we were constantly monitored for our
radon exposure. Each crew worked in a progressively deeper part of the caverns,
then had to work on the surface for a period of time. Also our cave tech, Kay
Rohde, came through several times a day with her little air tester which would
suck in the air at different points in the cave and then she'd put her findings
into her results program to find out where radon was the highest (back of the
Big Room during the summer visitor peak, in case you were wondering). I don't
know if they still do that or not.
Louise
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:26:27 -0600
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] underground houses
In addition to Mixon's criticisms, there is always the issue of alpha
radiation. All earth material tends to have some alpha radiation emitters
(often more simply and misleadingly called radon). The more surfaces one has
that are earth material (dirt, limestone, concrete), the more fresh air
ventilation one needs to have healthy air.
Is caving dangerous because of alpha radiation? In very few caves is it,
because none of us spends that much time in caves. There are some western
caves with some incredibly high alpha counts.
Is mining dangerous because of the 40-hour work week exposure. No, because
mines are ventilated with fresh air and the air quality is monitored.
Is living underground without a lot of fresh air ventilation or even cooling
your home or business with cave air a health hazard? Yes.
Wait a minute, alpha radiation can't even penetrate your skin, so this is all
BS. No, because the vector is from breathing in particles that are alpha
emitters. Breathing in alpha emitters tends to produce lung cancer. High
humidity promotes mold growth and overexposure to mold can cause other lung
problems (personal experience and a visit to a pulmonologist).
If such a home had any appliances, there would be waste heat that would help
(enough for the summertime??) decrease the relative humidity.
Natural thermal attenuation and moderation are wonderful things and this
email should not be construed to say that they are not worth pursuing. However
as with most things in life, the devil is in the details.
Philip L. Moss
[email protected]
____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your
business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The staff of Plunge Productions is looking for scanned images for our
>upcoming movie "Texas Cavers". Your assistance is so appreciated.
Aimee, you and Joe and Grace better get on the stick. That sounds like a
lot of missing pieces, and the (pushed back) deadline for SpeleMedia
entries is only 5 weeks away! April 1 for receipt, not postmark.
And let this be a reminder to any and all others to get those videos polished
up and submitted! This is going to be a great contest!
The rules and entry form can be found at www.ics2009.us/spele.html.
Alex
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:01 PM 2/23/2009, Mixon Bill wrote:
In Texas, humidity would be a problem.
The one I designed has a vapor barrier (ref thick plastic) so that no
cave air gets inside, only the cave temperature. All living space air
comes from the outside atmosphere. That should solve both the
humidity (and mold) andhe alpha emitters condition (see thick
plastic, as well) as mentioned by P. Moss.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How in the world do you keep from bumping your head riding underground
on them horses?
Oh that's right you said a 15' tall ceiling, I guess you would be okay.
Bill
Quoting Gill Ediger <[email protected]>:
At 12:01 PM 2/23/2009, Mixon Bill wrote:
In Texas, humidity would be a problem.
The one I designed has a vapor barrier (ref thick plastic) so that no
cave air gets inside, only the cave temperature. All living space air
comes from the outside atmosphere. That should solve both the humidity
(and mold) andhe alpha emitters condition (see thick plastic, as well)
as mentioned by P. Moss.
--Ediger
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I bet he has one of them 10-gallon Texas caver helmets I saw at convention
MANY years ago.?
julia
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bentley-Webmail <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 4:09 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] underground horses 2
How in the world do you keep from bumping your head riding underground on them
horses??
Oh that's right you said a 15' tall ceiling, I guess you would be okay.?
?
Bill?
?
Quoting Gill Ediger <[email protected]>:?
?
> At 12:01 PM 2/23/2009, Mixon Bill wrote:?
>> In Texas, humidity would be a problem.?
>?
> The one I designed has a vapor barrier (ref thick plastic) so that no?
> cave air gets inside, only the cave temperature. All living space air?
> comes from the outside atmosphere. That should solve both the humidity?
> (and mold) andhe alpha emitters condition (see thick plastic, as well)?
> as mentioned by P. Moss.?
>?
> --Ediger?
>?
>?
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I've gotten a lot of interest in this trip lately, and I am not sure
if I have contact info for everyone who has expressed interest. At
this point I would like to request that anyone who is interested in
going and hasn't directly confirmed their participation with me to
please do two things:
1.) Contact me off list for further details. This trip is open to
everyone that can get into (and back out of) Mexico and also find a
ride in a 4x4, high-clearance vehicle. Right now we do have some room
in the vehicles that are going, but that may quickly change. We will
leave Austin on 3-14 and return 3-22.
2.) Please sign up for the purificacion.org announcements list by
going here:
http://purificacion.org/mailman/listinfo/announcements_purificacion.org
That way I do not have to constantly update a large, unwieldy e-mail
group in my address book. This is a very quiet list as it is used
solely for trip planning purposes, so it shouldn't clutter up your
inbox.
Thanks!
Sandi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A new university student group is forming in East Texas under the guidance of
Kevin Stafford, recent New Mexico transplant and newest Director of the Texas
Speleological Survey.
Jerry.
CAVE seeks members to learn, enjoy the exploration of caves
By: Mark Rhoudes
The Pine Log, newspaper of Stephen F. Austin State University
Issue date: 2/23/09 Section: News
CAVE, Cavern Association of Venture and Exploration, is a new organization on
campus that gives people a chance to explore and learn about caves.
The club's goal is to provide a better understanding of caverns to its members
through studying cavern structure, formation and stability, mapping uncharted
caverns in East Texas and volunteering at the Texas Speleological Association.
The club was formed to give students a chance to learn about caves in a
real-world situation. "We're an organization devoted to exploring caverns and
any hole in the ground," Jennifer Wingo, Waco senior and CAVE president said.
"We want to explore and put class knowledge to the field," Wingo said.
Although the focus of the club is geological, it is open to anyone.
"We'd like to have a cross-section of society," Dr. Kevin Stafford, CAVE
adviser, said. "Professionals, non-professionals, scientists and
non-scientists; a diverse group."
The club wants to have members of varying backgrounds.
"Geology majors, obviously, would enjoy it," Wingo said, "but so would biology
majors, people who like the outdoors, adventure types, photographers and anyone
who wants to put textbooks to the field."
The club appreciates information about known caves in the local area and
already has three weekend trips planned for March, April and May.
CAVE meets the first and third Wednesday of every month at noon in the Miller
Science Building, room 333. Membership is $10 per semester. Contact Jennifer
Wingo at [email protected] with any questions or comments.
http://media.www.thepinelog.com/media/storage/paper954/news/2009/02/23/News/Cave-Seeks.Members.To.Learn.Enjoy.The.Exploration.Of.Caves-3643515.shtml
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For clarification --- I am not a New Mexico transplant, I am a Texan who
went to Grad School in New Mexico and returned to Texas this past fall.
Of course some would question if deep east Texas is really Texas!!
We will see if the students can create a real cave club. Arkansas is as
close as Deep and Punkin for us here, so there are possibilities for this
group to go caving in either direction. Of course we only have sandstone
caves here in our backyard, which is not exactly the same as living in
Austin and becoming addicted to caving.
Cheers,
Kevin
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:40:30 -0500 [email protected] writes:
A new university student group is forming in East Texas under the
guidance of Kevin Stafford, recent New Mexico transplant and newest
Director of the Texas Speleological Survey.
Jerry.
____________________________________________________________
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"the uncharted caverns of East Texas"? Good luck with that. -- Mixon
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Pseudokarst of East Texas!
-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 9:09 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] new caving club
"the uncharted caverns of East Texas"? Good luck with that. -- Mixon?
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I thought West Texas was everything west of the Pecos and east Texas was
everything east with the exception of Houston which is considered
no-mans land.
G
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new caving club
Pseudokarst of East Texas!
-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 9:09 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] new caving club
"the uncharted caverns of East Texas"? Good luck with that. -- Mixon
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No-man,
Houston is the ghetto and illegal alien center of the universe. That is,
considering Texas to be the meaningful inverse.
Fritz
________________________________
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:56 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new caving club
I thought West Texas was everything west of the Pecos and east Texas was
everything east with the exception of Houston which is considered no-mans land.
G
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new caving club
Pseudokarst of East Texas!
-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 9:09 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] new caving club
"the uncharted caverns of East Texas"? Good luck with that. -- Mixon
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Hey guys -- SFA is my alma mater. Over the 17 years from 1971 to 1988,
migrating from Forestry to Geology to Spanish to English, I managed to get
myself a degree there, along with lots of other adventures. I'll be trying
to get in touch with them.
There is nice little cave in East Texas,over near Center in Shelby County.
Regards,
Mike Gross
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wasn't David Locklear exploring for caves in East Texas a while back? Where is
Locklear anyway?
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Mike Gross <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Mike Gross <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Texascavers] Caving Club at SFA
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 11:16 PM
> Hey guys -- SFA is my alma mater. Over the 17 years from
> 1971 to 1988, migrating from Forestry to Geology to Spanish
> to English, I managed to get myself a degree there, along
> with lots of other adventures. I'll be trying to get in
> touch with them.
>
> There is nice little cave in East Texas,over near Center in
> Shelby County.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Gross
>
>
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David lives in Sugar Land.
-----Original Message-----
From: R D Milhollin [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:31 PM
To: [email protected]; Mike Gross
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Caving Club at SFA
Wasn't David Locklear exploring for caves in East Texas a while back? Where
is Locklear anyway?
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Mike Gross <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Mike Gross <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Texascavers] Caving Club at SFA
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 11:16 PM
> Hey guys -- SFA is my alma mater. Over the 17 years from
> 1971 to 1988, migrating from Forestry to Geology to Spanish
> to English, I managed to get myself a degree there, along
> with lots of other adventures. I'll be trying to get in
> touch with them.
>
> There is nice little cave in East Texas,over near Center in
> Shelby County.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Gross
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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