Joe, I'm not arguing your right or thoughts as someone who considers themselves a caver but, I know from experience that if the Austin caver community doesn't consider this matter an important issue we as a caver community will either have very limited or no access to City of Austin owned caves.
This is not about what I think is worth sharing or not, it's about what I hear from the city staff because I'm one of the folks who is contacted when there's an issue or problem. I want the caves in Austin available in perpetuity. What I don't want is for cavers to loose access because of world-wide information about how and where the cave is located. There's a reason all the other city caves are gated, Joe and if we don't want that to happen to Airmen's we need to take care about what info we make available. Hey, feel free to take whomever you like but, please don't publicize it to the whole world. Publicize it to your friends and family and others who you care about, just not the whole world. I don't have a negative attitude about our caves quite the opposite, I've dedicated years to helping insure that cavers such as you Joe have access to Austin caves and you are not helping that situation. Potentially your attitude is what might cost cavers access. Point of fact is it doesn't matter what you think should be the access for Airmen's, it's not YOUR cave and if cavers don't help the issues regarding Airmen's or any other city owned caves we're not going to be able to use them, it's that simple. We don't own it. For the past 20+ years that I've been caving and I'm sure for years before that there has been a caver - landowner relationship effort. If you want access you don't mess with the landowners wishes and that what's at risk here with your attitude Joe. I'm delighted you're proud of caving as am I however it doesn't mean that you do what you want at the risk of messing access up for the whole caver community. I'm not suggesting that you not be proud nor am I suggesting that you don't take video's. I am suggesting that the community limit the world-wide access to what you film as it has potentially detrimental consequences to cave access in Austin with city of Austin caves. Joe, I'm asking for your help to insure that we do have access to Airmen's and other Austin caves and I implore all of Texas cavers and especially Austin area cavers to help explain to Joe what happens when we piss of the cave owners. Who suffers regardless of who is at fault, it's always been cavers. julie --- On Tue, 9/23/08, Joe Zamecki <[email protected]> wrote: From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave To: [email protected], "Texas Cavers" <[email protected]>, "John Brooks" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] List-Post: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 4:56 PM #yiv67552084 #yiv1131423264 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv67552084 #yiv1131423264 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} Ouch. A negative attitude about caves and Austin. I think Airmen's Cave should be opened up to the public, more than it is, and not hidden like it's an eyesore. Just because you think it's not worth sharing, don't bother me about that. The caving community ought to utilizing video and sites like Youtube. We have something great in our caves, and I'm going to share them with pride. Shame on anyone who wants to hide the beauty of Austin. Joe Zamecki List-Post: [email protected] Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:14:39 -0700 From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave To: [email protected]; [email protected] CC: [email protected]; [email protected] All, I generally wouldn't respond to this type of email, I'd view it, enjoy it, and toss it. However, for more than a decade a couple of us have worked with the city of Austin to develop a trust relationship, to embody the cave community as a responsible group of individuals who care about the karst and protecting our cave resources. We've worked very diligently to help the city feel comfortable and safe with cavers and their activities. In other words, we've built ourselves into a position as an asset to the city for their caves, we're the unofficial 'eyes and ears on the karst'. The local caving community does lots of outreach, education, and guides lots and lots of cave trips. This relationship which, at best allows cavers a lot of freedom in usage is also very tenuous and problems often have resulted in cavers loosing access, even when it's not been a caver caused problem. I feel compelled to respond to this email posting and hope that by addressing this I don't inflame the caver community but, rather get you all to think and consider the impact of your actions. Although these video segments are somewhat factual and somewhat amusing, it's posting video's such as these, providing exact directions and encouraging the internet world at large by providing so much info that it threatens the continued open access to this cave and potentially other Austin area caves owned by the city. The August 2007 Airmen's search, which one of these guys states he was involved with has still not been resolved and the city of Austin, who owns the cave is still seriously looking at gating the cave. This sort of encouragement and advertisement of the cave will NOT help the situation. I can appreciate that with all our technology, gps, video, digital cameras, internet etc. that it's tough to maintain the caver 'ethic' of NOT giving out locations but, if we as the caving community do not continue this practice we will very likely loose access to this cave and perhaps if we're not more cautious and responsible for our actions we could loose access to the other caves in Austin that cavers currently have access to. Having been called out by the fire dept. on the August search for the UT students, I don't recall these guys at all being involved but, then I was busy locating the students. What I learned from the experience and can share w/the entire caving community is that the city has huge very real concerns over location information going out to the internet and this kind of information as well as videos on utube, links being sent out w/photos from trips that were taken to caves that are only open for scientific research access. This puts our caving community in a very tenuous position with the city decision makers. We stand to loose our access privprivilegesause this kind of widespread and specific information increases the potential for unprepared individuals to attempt to do the cave trip, likely resulting in other 'rescues' or 'searches', which translates to problems, lots of $$'s on the part of the city, lots of outcry from the tax paying public, and potential life threatening danger to the non prepared cave visitor. Whether you all live in Austin or not, every incident right, wrong, or indifferent reflects on the Austin caving community. If we're shut out, and ALL the caves gated, access denied, then we all loose. It may not make a difference to non Austin cavers but, it does make a difference to the Austin caving community. I've just been contacted again by the city to meet to look at the problems and issues that have arisen regarding 'rescues', the cost the Austin's citizens (nearly 20K for this last incident with UT students) and the potential liability for the city, and it's going to be very difficult to emploimplorecity to leave Airmen's open, and to allow cavers continued access when cavers continue to publicize locations, names, and techniques. And believe me, they will have already seen this email link before we meet at the end of the week, you see they're on cavetex, too.!! This is a plea to the caving community to discontinue publicizing by whatever method directions, locations, how-to's, and commentary about caves in general but, more specifically Austin caves. Y'all are killin' us in Austin and we're not going to be able to justify asking that the caves remain open with so much info out on the internet. Conversely, from the city prospective whose mandate is one of protecting the public both from danger and from unreasonable costs to the city and it's tax paying citizens, duh, it's gonna make sense for them to gate the cave reduce or eliminate the problem or potential for problems. Y'all are making this a battle that can't be won by providing this sort of detailed information. And I gotta tell you once it's gone we're not likely to ever get it back. Again, please think before you decide you're going to post something to the internet. If you gotta share, do it with a small select group, not the world and not cavetex at large. You know anyone can join cavetex and there are several city staff folks who read cavetex. If we don't police ourselves, the city, who owns most of the caves in Austin area will police us, and that will take the form of NO ACCESS at worst and very controlled, limited access at best. thanks, Julie Jenkins --- On Tue, 9/23/08, John Brooks <[email protected]> wrote: From: John Brooks <[email protected]> Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave To: "Texas Cavers" <[email protected]> List-Post: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 1:37 AM Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]> List-Post: [email protected] Date: September 21, 2008 11:45:48 PM CDT To: <[email protected]> Subject: Airmen's Cave Howdy! I went with a friend into Airmen's Cave, the first few dozen feet anyway, and we got some nice video. I wanted to share it with you and your group: 1 Getting There: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzdmqtNRWo 2 Getting Into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQLND4X94t4 3 Getting Out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYek28q95hI 4 Chattin': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThWzE6JwM8g Seeya! Joe Zamecki Austin, TX See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. See Now See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home, work, or on the go. See Now
