Joe,
Are you a member of the National Speleological Society, or of an NSS-
chartered grotto? If not, I recommend that you look into joining the
"caving community" in a formal way, as so many of us (including Julie
Jenkins) have already done.
On the NSS web site (www.caves.org), under the link, "Caving
Brochures," is the "Guide to Responsible Caving." I encourage you to
read it; I excerpt relevant parts of it below:
"PROTECTING CAVES
Sharing cave locations
Do not reveal the location of caves to people whose regard for caves
might result in harm. You are responsible for protecting both the cave
and the people who might misuse your information. Increasing casual
traffic in caves (by geocaching or posting locations on web sites, for
example) is misusing cave location information. It leads to vandalism
and degradation of the cave, and it can upset cave owners.
CAVING COURTESY
Landowner relations
Good relationships between cavers and landowners are an essential part
of visiting caves, and maintaining these relationships is a key
element of responsible caving. Sadly, many landowners now prohibit
people from entering their caves as a result of inconsiderate actions
by cave visitors, and others have placed locked gates on their caves.
Observe these fundamental courtesies to receive permission to enter
caves, to be welcomed as a guest in the future, and to keep caves open
for other cavers."
Also, I encourage you to read the NSS Cave Conservation Policy (http://www.caves.org/committee/conservation/
). I excerpt two relevant passages below:
"...the intention of the Society is to work for the preservation of
caves with a realistic policy supported by effective programs for: the
encouragement of self-discipline among cavers.."
"Where there is reason to believe that publication of cave locations
will lead to vandalism before adequate protection can be established,
the Society will oppose such publication."
You do not have to "hide the beauty of Austin." You just don't need to
share the location of arguably the least beautiful (though most
sporting!) cave in Austin with all of the untrained couch potatoes out
there who are likely to treat Airmen's as some kind of reality-tv-show
adventure, so that responsible cavers wind up having to drag their ill-
prepared butts out of trouble when they get lost, dehydrated and
exhausted.
Diana
On Sep 23, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Jules Jenkins wrote:
Joe,
I'm not arguing your right or thoughts as someone who considers
themselves a caver but, I know from experience that if the Austin
caver community doesn't consider this matter an important issue we
as a caver community will either have very limited or no access to
City of Austin owned caves.
This is not about what I think is worth sharing or not, it's about
what I hear from the city staff because I'm one of the folks who is
contacted when there's an issue or problem. I want the caves in
Austin available in perpetuity. What I don't want is for cavers to
loose access because of world-wide information about how and where
the cave is located. There's a reason all the other city caves are
gated, Joe and if we don't want that to happen to Airmen's we need
to take care about what info we make available.
Hey, feel free to take whomever you like but, please don't publicize
it to the whole world. Publicize it to your friends and family and
others who you care about, just not the whole world.
I don't have a negative attitude about our caves quite the opposite,
I've dedicated years to helping insure that cavers such as you Joe
have access to Austin caves and you are not helping that situation.
Potentially your attitude is what might cost cavers access. Point
of fact is it doesn't matter what you think should be the access for
Airmen's, it's not YOUR cave and if cavers don't help the issues
regarding Airmen's or any other city owned caves we're not going to
be able to use them, it's that simple. We don't own it.
For the past 20+ years that I've been caving and I'm sure for years
before that there has been a caver - landowner relationship effort.
If you want access you don't mess with the landowners wishes and
that what's at risk here with your attitude Joe. I'm delighted
you're proud of caving as am I however it doesn't mean that you do
what you want at the risk of messing access up for the whole caver
community.
I'm not suggesting that you not be proud nor am I suggesting that
you don't take video's.. I am suggesting that the community limit
the world-wide access to what you film as it has potentially
detrimental consequences to cave access in Austin with city of
Austin caves.
Joe, I'm asking for your help to insure that we do have access to
Airmen's and other Austin caves and I implore all of Texas cavers
and especially Austin area cavers to help explain to Joe what
happens when we piss of the cave owners. Who suffers regardless of
who is at fault, it's always been cavers.
julie
--- On Tue, 9/23/08, Joe Zamecki <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave
To: [email protected], "Texas Cavers"
<[email protected]>, "John Brooks"
<[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 4:56 PM
Ouch. A negative attitude about caves and Austin. I think Airmen's
Cave should be opened up to the public, more than it is, and not
hidden like it's an eyesore. Just because you think it's not worth
sharing, don't bother me about that.
The caving community ought to utilizing video and sites like
Youtube. We have something great in our caves, and I'm going to
share them with pride. Shame on anyone who wants to hide the beauty
of Austin.
Joe Zamecki
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:14:39 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
All,
I generally wouldn't respond to this type of email, I'd view it,
enjoy it, and toss it. However, for more than a decade a couple of
us have worked with the city of Austin to develop a trust
relationship, to embody the cave community as a responsible group of
individuals who care about the karst and protecting our cave
resources. We've worked very diligently to help the city feel
comfortable and safe with cavers and their activities. In other
words, we've built ourselves into a position as an asset to the city
for their caves, we're the unofficial 'eyes and ears on the karst'.
The local caving community does lots of outreach, education, and
guides lots and lots of cave trips. This relationship which, at best
allows cavers a lot of freedom in usage is also very tenuous and
problems often have resulted in cavers loosing access, even when
it's not been a caver caused problem. I feel compelled to respond
to this email posting and hope that by addressing this I don't
inflame the caver community but, rather get you all to think and
consider the impact of your actions.
Although these video segments are somewhat factual and somewhat
amusing, it's posting video's such as these, providing exact
directions and encouraging the internet world at large by providing
so much info that it threatens the continued open access to this
cave and potentially other Austin area caves owned by the city.
The August 2007 Airmen's search, which one of these guys states he
was involved with has still not been resolved and the city of
Austin, who owns the cave is still seriously looking at gating the
cave. This sort of encouragement and advertisement of the cave will
NOT help the situation.
I can appreciate that with all our technology, gps, video, digital
cameras, internet etc. that it's tough to maintain the caver 'ethic'
of NOT giving out locations but, if we as the caving community do
not continue this practice we will very likely loose access to this
cave and perhaps if we're not more cautious and responsible for our
actions we could loose access to the other caves in Austin that
cavers currently have access to.
Having been called out by the fire dept. on the August search for
the UT students, I don't recall these guys at all being involved
but, then I was busy locating the students. What I learned from the
experience and can share w/the entire caving community is that the
city has huge very real concerns over location information going out
to the internet and this kind of information as well as videos on
utube, links being sent out w/photos from trips that were taken to
caves that are only open for scientific research access. This puts
our caving community in a very tenuous position with the city
decision makers. We stand to loose our access privprivilegesause
this kind of widespread and specific information increases the
potential for unprepared individuals to attempt to do the cave trip,
likely resulting in other 'rescues' or 'searches', which translates
to problems, lots of $$'s on the part of the city, lots of outcry
from the tax paying public, and potential life threatening danger to
the non prepared cave visitor.
Whether you all live in Austin or not, every incident right, wrong,
or indifferent reflects on the Austin caving community. If we're
shut out, and ALL the caves gated, access denied, then we all loose.
It may not make a difference to non Austin cavers but, it does make
a difference to the Austin caving community.
I've just been contacted again by the city to meet to look at the
problems and issues that have arisen regarding 'rescues', the cost
the Austin's citizens (nearly 20K for this last incident with UT
students) and the potential liability for the city, and it's going
to be very difficult to emploimplorecity to leave Airmen's open, and
to allow cavers continued access when cavers continue to publicize
locations, names, and techniques. And believe me, they will have
already seen this email link before we meet at the end of the week,
you see they're on cavetex, too.!!
This is a plea to the caving community to discontinue publicizing by
whatever method directions, locations, how-to's, and commentary
about caves in general but, more specifically Austin caves. Y'all
are killin' us in Austin and we're not going to be able to justify
asking that the caves remain open with so much info out on the
internet.
Conversely, from the city prospective whose mandate is one of
protecting the public both from danger and from unreasonable costs
to the city and it's tax paying citizens, duh, it's gonna make sense
for them to gate the cave reduce or eliminate the problem or
potential for problems.
Y'all are making this a battle that can't be won by providing this
sort of detailed information.
And I gotta tell you once it's gone we're not likely to ever get it
back.
Again, please think before you decide you're going to post something
to the internet. If you gotta share, do it with a small select
group, not the world and not cavetex at large.
You know anyone can join cavetex and there are several city staff
folks who read cavetex.
If we don't police ourselves, the city, who owns most of the caves
in Austin area will police us, and that will take the form of NO
ACCESS at worst and very controlled, limited access at best.
thanks,
Julie Jenkins
--- On Tue, 9/23/08, John Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:
From: John Brooks <[email protected]>
Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave
To: "Texas Cavers" <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 1:37 AM
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]>
Date: September 21, 2008 11:45:48 PM CDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Airmen's Cave
Howdy! I went with a friend into Airmen's Cave, the first few dozen
feet anyway, and we got
some nice video. I wanted to share it with you and your group:
1 Getting There: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzdmqtNRWo
2 Getting Into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQLND4X94t4
3 Getting Out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYek28q95hI
4 Chattin': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThWzE6JwM8g
Seeya!
Joe Zamecki
Austin, TX
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