The cave you are thinking of is on the Anderson ranch just north of
CWAN. The name is escaping me... Maybe Karen, Blair or Allen
remembers... Emory was the ranch hand.
To the best of my knowledge it doesn't go under the Guad. Not deep or
long enough. Only used one extension ladder (a long one) to get down.
But it did go for quite a ways and got muddy after a keyhole.
George correct me if I'm wrong but a cave would need to drop at least
100' to get under the Guad from up where CWAN, Alzafar, Golden Fawn,
Spring Creek, Phillip's water cave etc are located.
Joe
[email protected]
Sent while mobile
On Jul 11, 2008, at 3:24 PM, "George Veni" <[email protected]>
wrote:
Travis,
While I’ve moved to New Mexico, I continue for the time being to mai
ntain the TSS files for Kendall County (as well as Bexar and Comal).
No cave in the files is reported to extend under the Guadalupe Rive
r. Can you or Joe Ranzau (who I know is neck-deep in wedding prepara
tions and other matters) send me more information on the cave you me
ntioned below. Are you sure it wasn’t Cricket Cave, which is north o
f CWAN and on CWAN property? If the cave is in the database, I’ll ge
t you more information on it. If it is new to the database, then Tex
as is officially one cave richer.
On the question of air-filled caves extending under rivers, the
potential for it depends on the elevation of the water table.
Generally speaking, a river is the surface expression and extension
of the groundwater table. By definition, all spaces below the water
table are filled with water. The Guadalupe River is one such stream
and so no air-filled caves should exist below it. However, many
streams have “losing” reaches where the water table is below the
stream bed and the streams lose their flow the further they extend o
ver such areas, often going completely dry. Most of the streams that
extend across the Edwards Aquifer Recharge Zone are losing streams
and places where you can find caves below stream beds. I can think o
f several examples.
While karst aquifers are known to rapidly transmit water
underground, they are also good at perching water for short
distances (relative to the overall scheme of things). These aquifers
are triple permeability (the measure of how fast water flows through
rock or soil) systems. The bedrock or matrix permeability transmits
water at rates of meters per thousands of years and provides the
bulk surface on which losing streams flow. Significant water loss in
losing streams occurs in fracture permeability, where groundwater
may be months or decades old, and in conduit permeability.
Hydrologically, conduits are generally any continuous cavity more
than about 15 mm in diameter or width. Caves are just big conduits
that people can enter. In terms of how water flows, its chemistry,
ability to transport sediment and provide habitat to critters, and
vulnerability to contamination, conduits and caves are largely
indistinguishable. And I don’t think I need to describe to cavers ho
w fast water can move in caves.
George
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 11:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Explore a cave?
I seem to recall going into a cave north of CWAN back in the day,
maybe it was called Chimney Cave or something? It was in a definite
karst area (no soil) and had a ladder going down into the entrance
pit. Beyond the entrance room, it was a series of stoop walking
passages with places to stand up here and there. Anyways, I was
told it went directly under the Guadalupe River near it's terminus,
but I have no idea if that is true.. There were mostly SA folks (I
can remember Ranzau being there as a mere high school senior just
getting his feet wet in the caving world), Spencer Woods and Amanda
and I. Anyways, was this ever confirmed by a survey?
TS
(I think I even took a video camera and recorded the cave from
entrance to near the end, need to find that..) I also remember
coming out of the cave one night late and becoming COMPLETELY lost
with fading lights and no batteries. About the time we resolved to
just sleep on the ground, we stumbled onto the trail. We slept good
in the owners spare quarters with the heater that night.
Actually, there are a number of caves in various places where you
can walk or crawl under active flowing streams. Blackhouse Mountain
Cave in Tennessee is a great example as one of the passages in this
multi-mile long cave goes completely under a flowing stream and has
an entrance on both sides of the creek.
Geary
