I have to agree with Mr. Nincehelser. The discussions I enjoy the most in life, that are most likely to propel my interest in something worthwhile, do not cling to the Safe and the Known and the Agreed Upon. And they often include, in my own opinion, lots of Annoying and Ridiculous and Controversy and even Tangents, most especially when they involve other cavers!! (Haven't you noticed that?) Thank goodness I can use my ability to excuse myself from a conversation when it takes an unproductive turn. Thank goodness life isn't moderated to the point of constant comfort and familiarity.Sometimes respectfulness is challenging. I'm glad I've had more than two chances to get it right. I'm not saying that's a blank check for disrespect, I'm just saying that being good at it is a learning process, and I trust that most of us are trying to get there. In the meantime, and this is also a challenge for even the best of us - try not to take stuff too personally, especially when it comes from a bunch of yahoos on the Internet. (that's a joke, folks. We're all yahoos, get it? Ha ha. Oh come on, If you can't laugh at yourself....) Educational journals are made up of completely topic oriented, educational articles from experts and experienced members of the field. Communities are made up of humans - angry, helpful, unprofessional, experienced, opinionated, curious, learned, mistaken, giving, uninformed, kind, supportive, different, smart, annoying. I don't ever feel a bond to the educational and caving journals I receive at home. They have never delivered soup to me when I was sick, or offered me comfort, or shared my joys in life, even if we don't regularly 'get along'. And Frankly, evolution, plastic bags, and global warming are completely relevant in this forum, as they have an impact on us as cavers, scientists, on caves themselves, and as people who enjoy the natural world and want to know more about it, and want that kind of education available to future generations. I appreciate the people who don't shy away from talking about it. No one has a monopoly on knowing what's relevant and important, and no one should. Hopefully, the desire to strive for respectfulness is the only thing we should all agree on. I guess if this really is the end of OT (which, from the looks of the last 9 out of 12 posts, thank goodness it isn't) it is time for someone like me to excersize that ability to walk away, and decide if it isn't time to take a break from it, and enjoy an unrestrained caving community exchange elsewhere, but I also didn't want to be bullied into feeling irelevant for enjoying the OT's. I considered shutting up, but that's not my way, so thanks for letting me have my say - I believe dissent is important.
Kara ----- Original Message ---- From: George Nincehelser <[email protected]> To: George Veni <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:38:28 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts on OT postings First it was too warm, then it is to chilly. While I don't agree with some of what's been posted here in the past, but neither do I agree with throwing a wet blanket on the interesting socializing that goes on here. It's too bad. I'll just find somewhere else to hang out, I guess. George On 1/13/08, George Veni <[email protected]> wrote: There is no need to say "except" below. Cave related equipment is cave related. It is not OT. For what it's worth, in addition to the on-line responses supporting my posting, I've received several private notes of support too. George -----Original Message----- From: Matt Turner [mailto: [email protected]] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:01 AM To: Daniel Hogenauer; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts on OT postings Agree about the OT discussion, except when they involve cave related equipment, like David's LED discussions. Global Warming, Evolution, and Plastic bags should be on another list. Matt Turner "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle "Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do that."- Norman Vincent Peale ----- Original Message ---- From: Daniel Hogenauer < [email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 10:50:33 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Thoughts on OT postings Thank you George, Thank you for your abiding commitment to and concern for caves, cavers, caving organizations and functions, and for this forum. I second what you wrote to the TexasCavers community about this news group - very well said. I don't think that I was among those who told you that they were tempted to unsubscribe, but I am among the subscribers who routinely delete every single post from some contributors and many other postings with subject line that are of no interest. However I still feel that this list has value and I believe that it will be even better for your contribution. Again, thanks, Dan From: [email protected] To: [email protected]. Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:26:09 -0700 Subject: [Texascavers] Thoughts on OT postings One of the recent postings on off-topic discussions stated, "Some enjoy the OT subjects…" I know that's true, but let's compare some numbers. By my count, there are about a dozen people who contribute the great majority of OT material. I've heard there are close to 200 people registered on TexasCavers.com. That's not a very high number, especially considering that many subscribers don't live in Texas. I believe a big reason is the OT postings. I know at least 2 dozen cavers who over the past five years or so (two cavers within the past 3 weeks) have told me they canceled their subscriptions or refused to subscribe due to all of the OT postings. I can count at least 2-3 dozen additional cavers who have told me they are tempted to unsubscribe because of OT postings, but put up with them to get the rare snippet of caving information. If this is only what I've heard, I suspect the actual numbers are quite higher. Yes, people can click delete, but why should they? Do we embrace spammers and say "It's OK. Just hit delete if you don't want the information"? To subscribe, cavers go to www.texascavers.com where it states "This list should be used for the exchange of information on Texas caving and related activities." So when cavers subscribe, they expect information that is related to caving, not non-caving information they didn't ask for. Just because a caver does, uses, believes, or is interested in something, doesn't make that cave related. The basic definition of spam is unsolicited, unwanted e-mail, and since most of the postings are OT, many cavers I've heard from consider most postings spam. I'm pretty sure no one signed up for that. The purpose of TexasCavers.com is to "keep cavers informed about the latest developments and current events in Texas and the rest of the caving world." With at least 2 dozen cavers who have already run away due to OT postings, and at least as many considering unsubscribing for the same reason, TexasCavers.com is failing at its purpose. Many cavers are not getting news from TexasCaver.com or sharing their news with it. That is truly a shame. George Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Start sharing! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
