There are 3 idiots in the forum scratching each other's backs; one above is asking why you are calling so and so as such and such when he had written a decent email? only because he wrote a decent email, I also addressed him with respect decently; if you feel that it shall come to you pl have that decency upon you sir so you may become an idiot a decent term as equal to yours and his. OK no regrets? KR
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: gopala krishnan <gopa4...@yahoo.in> Date: Thu, 9 May 2024 at 07:55 Subject: Re: [iyer123] Re: [KeralaIyers] SANATANA DHARMA PART 18 KR IRS LDN KANCHI K RAJARAM IRS To: keralaiy...@googlegroups.com <keralaiy...@googlegroups.com>, Patty Thatha <thatha_patty@googlegroups.com>, Iyer <iyer...@googlegroups.com>, Narayanaswamy Iyer <iyern...@gmail.com>, Rajaram Krishnamurthy < keyarinc...@gmail.com>, APS Mani <m...@manijpn.in>, Laxminarayan Sarma < laxminarayan.sa...@gmail.com> Mr Rajaram, Why do you call a retired kernel Mr Sharma an *idiot*? If he has used any abusing word in his mail, you could have pointed it.You are going far below of a cultured member. Gopalakrishnan On Thursday, 9 May, 2024 at 05:49:08 pm IST, Rajaram Krishnamurthy < keyarinc...@gmail.com> wrote: Ignored the idiot KR On Wed, 8 May 2024 at 23:48, Laxminarayan Sarma < laxminarayan.sa...@gmail.com> wrote: *Hey IaRSe* *Nobody questioned or doubted or laid a claim that xy or z is greater than Mahaperiyaval. You bird brained rotten ego misinterprets anything and evrything. That's your problem. * *But it goes to prove one thing. And that is the deficiency in your underdeveloped and, also, perverted intellect. And your non-existent comprehension abilities. Add to this your zero linguistic abilities * *It was in this context that i suggested you sit at the feet of Brahmashri Narayanaswmy Anna and get your basics rught * *And , by the way, I accepted you as my manasika guru in the domain of Tamil profanities and you will be glad that i excel you, my guru in this.* *Aren't you glad that the sushya has excelked his guru, Shri Rajaram, IRS 999* On Thu, 9 May, 2024, 8:07 am Rajaram Krishnamurthy, <keyarinc...@gmail.com> wrote: Thank GOD; there is a mahan greater than Maha periyava and accusing and rebutting HIM, but turning the table over others. The REV to one ignoramus and one anna sarama , I dont know how many more worship him as greater than Maha Periyava. Truth is written; as a matter of fact certain scriptures hold more which will be presented at the appropriate time. Veda includes all Mere neti without any content and quoting wrongly chandogya upanishad will not make a fool a king Thank you KR IRS 9524 On Wed, 8 May 2024 at 21:11, Narayanaswamy Iyer <iyern...@gmail.com> wrote: Dear folks An absolute abysmal ignoramus preaching undiluted ignorance to the uninitiated. Examples:- (1) "*The rites meant for the deities must be performed with devotion and those meant for the pitrs or fathers must be performed with faith. What is done with devotion is yajna and what is done with faith is sraddha.*" My comments:- Both devotion and shraddha are needed for deva-yajnya and for pithru-yajnya. (2) "*Vyasa goes on to state in his Brahmasutra that animal sacrifice is not sinful since the act is permeated by the sound of the Vedas."* My comments:- Are the milliards of cattle and other animals killed for food in Jewish, Christian, Muslim and other flesh-eating communities done so while reciting vedams? (3) "*To do "pradakshina" means to go facing the south. (In majority of temples the raja-gopuram-the main entrance tower -is in the east. When you enter it and start circumbulating you will be facing the south.)*" My comments:- No. You don't. When you enter a temple, you face the deity, i.e. WEST. Then you begin *circumambulating* the garbha-graham where the deity is installed.. (4) "*In the concluding passage <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#CONCLUDING%20PASSAGE%20OF%20THE%20CHANDOGYA%20UPANISAD>** of the Chandogya Upanishad whwre ahimsa or non-violence is extolled you find these words, "Anyatra tirthebhyah". It means ahimsa must be practised except with regard to Vedic rites.*" My comments:- What the cchaandogya upanishad Cap VIII v 15 says, inter alia, is: "sansarva bhoothaanya anyathra theerthebhyaha". Meaning, according to the context, the student, after learning the Vedas from his teacher, returns home and takes up the duties of a householder. Withdrawing all his organs into Self, not injuring any creature, other than what is prescribed in the scriptures, he attains the world of Brahma. The notorious pervert K RAJARAM ex-IRS 8524 alias Karuppan-chaami twists this to mean, according to his own delusion, that ahimsa, including cruelty to all living beings, animal-slaughter, and consumption of meat, is permitted under the pretext of Vedic rites. S Narayanaswamy Iyer On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 12:46 AM Rajaram Krishnamurthy <keyarinc...@gmail.com> wrote: SANATANA DHARMA 18 TH PART K RAJARAM IRS 8524 //9524 The rites meant for the deities must be performed with devotion and those meant for the pitrs or fathers must be performed with faith. What is done with devotion is yajna and what is done with faith is sraddha. While performing the former, the sikha must be gathered into a knot and the sacred thread must rest on the left shoulder, and while performing the latter the sikha must be worn loose and the sacred thread must rest on the right shoulder. The sikha and the sacred thread are meant for these two purposes. Sannyasins do not have either. When they renounce the world they also renounce the rites for the fathers and cease to worship a number of deities. They adore the Paramatman directly without any worldly desire in their hearts. The followers of other religions too wear neither a sikha nor a sacred thread and they worship the Supreme God directly [that is without going through the stages in which the various deities are worshipped]. Let me tell you about the two positions of the sacred thread while performing the rites for the celestials and the fathers. We must face the east as we conduct various rituals. The north is the direction in which we make the passage to the celestials. This path is called ""uttarayana". Our departed fathers reside in the south. The saint-poet Tiruvalluvar calls them "tenpulattar", those dwelling in the south. "Dakshinayana" is the way to the world of the fathers. Bhagavan Krsna speaks of the two paths in the Gita <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#TWO%20PATHS%20IN%20THE%20GITA> . When we sit facing the east to perform rites for the pitrs, which shoulder is to the south? The right one. So the sacred thread must rest on it. To do "pradakshina" means to go facing the south. (In majority of temples the raja-gopuram-the main entrance tower -is in the east. When you enter it and start circumbulating you will be facing the south. ) When we sit facing the east to perform rites for the gods our left shoulder is to the north. So the sacred thread must rest on it. When we are not engaged in either of these two rites- that is when we are doing our office work or something else- the sacred thread must not rest on either shoulder and must be worn like a garland. (No one seems to observe this rule in practice now. Except during the rites for the fathers, most people have their sacred thread resting on their left shoulder. ) Why is it that religion alone has the rites called yajnas or sacrifices? If a crop grows in surplus in our place we trade it with what is available in plenty in another and is not produced in our own. The carpenter, the blacksmith and other artisans make useful articles and serve us in many ways. In return we give them what they need for their upkeep. We feed the cow grass and it yields us milk. We pay the government taxes and it gives us protection. The affairs of the world are conducted on the basis of a system of exchange. Similarly, we conduct an exchange even with worlds other than our own. Engineers and other experts can canalise water obtained from the rains but they cannot produce the rains. If we want the rains to come, we have to despatch certain goods to the abode of the celestials. It is this kind of exchange that the Gita speaks of: *Devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah* *Parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha* It means: " You keep the devas satisfied with the performance of sacrifices. And let them look after your welfare by producing rain on earth. Thus, helping each other, be more and more prosperous and happy. " *Is Sacrificial Killing Justified?* *MAY BE REAAD BY YMji also:* A yaga or sacrifice takes shape with the chanting of the mantras, the invoking of the deity and the offering of havis (oblation). The mantras are chanted (orally) and the deity is meditated upon (mentally). The most important material required for homa is the havis offered in the sacrificial fire-- in this "work" the body is involved. So, altogether, in a sacrificial offering <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#%60SACRIFICIAL%20OFFERING> mind, speech and body (mano-vak-kaya) are brought together. Ghee (clarified butter) is an important ingredient of the oblation. While ghee by itself is offered as an oblation, it is also used to purify other sacrificial materials - in fact this is obligatory. In a number of sacrifices the vapa(fat or marrow) of animals is offered. Is the performance of a sacrifice sinful, or is it meritorius? Or is it both? Madvacharya was against the killing of any pasu for a sacrifice. In his compassion he said that a substitute for the vapa must be made with flour and offered in the fire. ("Pasu" does not necessarily mean a cow. In Sanskrit any animal is called a "pasu". ) In his Brahmasutra, Vyasa has expounded the nature of the Atman as found expressed in the Upanishads which constitute the jnanakanda <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#JNANAKANDA%20&%20KARMAKANDA> of the Vedas. The actual conduct of sacrifices is dealt with in the Purvamimamsa which is the karmakanda <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#JNANAKANDA%20&%20KARMAKANDA> of the Vedas. The true purpose of sacrifices is explained in the Uttaramimamsa, that is the jnanakanda. What is this purposse or goal? It is the cleansing of the consciousness and such cleansing is essential to lead a man to the path of jnana. The Brahmasutra says: "Asuddhamiti cen na sabdat <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#CEN%20NA%20SABDAT>". The performance of sacrifices is based on scriptural authority and it is part of the quest for Self realisation. So how can it be called an impure act? How do we determine whether or not an object or an act is impure or whether it is good or bad? We do so by judging it according to the authority of of the sastras. Vyasa goes on to state in his Brahmasutra that animal sacrifice is not sinful since the act is permeated by the sound of the Vedas. What is pure or impure is to be known by the authority provided by the Vedas or rather their sound called Sabdapramana. If sacrifices were impure acts according to the Vedas, they would not have accepted them as part of the Atmic quest. Even if the sacrificial animal is made of flour (the substitute according to Madhvacharya) it is imbued with life by the chanting of the Vedic mantras. Would it not then be like a living animal and would not offering it in a sacrifice be taken as an act of violence? Tiruvalluvar says in his Tirukkural that not to kill an animal and eat it is better than performing a thousand sacrifices in which the oblation is consigned to the fire. You should not take this to mean that the poet speaks ill of sacrifices. What is in accordance or in pursuance of dharma must be practised howsoever or whatsoever it be. Here questions of violence must be disregarded. The Tirukkural says that it is better not to kill an animal than perform a thousand sacrifices. From this statement it is made out that Tiruvalluvar condemns sacrifices. According to Manu himself conducting one asvamedha (horse sacrifice) is superior to performing a thousand other sacrifices. At the same time, he declares that higher than a thousand horse sacrifices is the fact of one truth. If we say that one thing is better than another, the implication is that both are good. If the performance of a sacrifice were sinful, would it be claimed that one meritorious act is superior to a thousand sinful deeds? You may state that fasting on one Sivaratri is superior to fasting on a hundred Ekadasis. But would you say that the same is better than running a hundred butcheries? When you remark that "this rite is better than that rite or another", it means that the comparison is among two or more meritorious observances. In the concluding passage <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#CONCLUDING%20PASSAGE%20OF%20THE%20CHANDOGYA%20UPANISAD> of the Chandogya Upanishad whwre ahimsa or non-violence is extolled you find these words, "Anyatra tirthebhyah". It means ahimsa must be practised except with regard to Vedic rites. Considerations of violence have no place in sacrifices and the conduct of war. If the ideal of non-violence were superior to the performance of sacrifices, it would mean that "sacrifices are good but non-violence is better". The performance of a thousand sacrifices must be spoken of highly but the practice of non-violence is to be regarded as even higher: It is in this sense that the Kural stanza concerning sacrifices is to be interpreted. We must not also forget that it occurs in the section on renunciation. What the poet want to convey is that a sanyasin does better by abstaining from killing than a householder does by conducting a thousand sacrifices. According to the sastras also a sanyasin has no right to perform sacrifices. There are several types of sacrifices. I shall speak about them later when I deal with "Kalpa" (an Anga or limb of the Vedas) aaand "Grihasthasrama <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#THE%20STAGE%20OF%20THE%20HOUSEHOLDER>" (the stage of the householder). What I wish to state here is that animals are not killed in all sacrifices. There are a number of yagnas in which only ghee (ajya) is offered in the fire. In some, havisyanna (rice mixed with ghee) is offered and in some the cooked grains called "caru" or "purodasa", a kind of baked cake. In agnihotri <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#AGNIHOTRA%20,%20AUPASANA%20,%20SOMAYAJNA%20,%20VAJAPEYA> milk is poured into the fire; in aupasana <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#AGNIHOTRA%20,%20AUPASANA%20,%20SOMAYAJNA%20,%20VAJAPEYA> unbroken rice grains (aksata) are used; and in samidadhana the sticks of the palasa (flame of the forest). In sacrifices in which the vapa of animals is offered, only a tiny bit of the remains of the burnt offering is partaken of - and of course in the form of prasada. One is enjoined to perform twenty-one sacrifices. These are of three types:pakayajna, haviryajna and somayajna <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#AGNIHOTRA%20,%20AUPASANA%20,%20SOMAYAJNA%20,%20VAJAPEYA>. In each category there are seven subdivisions. In all the seven pakayajnas as well as in the first five haviryajnas there is no animal sacrifice. It is only from the sixth haviryajna onwards (it is called "nirudhapasubandha") that animals are sacrificed. "Brahmins sacrificed herds and herds of animals and gorged themselves on their meat. The Buddha saved such herds when they were being taken to the sacrificial altar, " we often read such accounts in books. To tell the truth, there is no sacrifice in which a large number of animals are killed. For vajapeya <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#AGNIHOTRA%20,%20AUPASANA%20,%20SOMAYAJNA%20,%20VAJAPEYA> which is the highest type of yajna performed by Brahmins, only twenty-three animals are mentioned. For asvamedha (horse sacrifice), the biggest of the sacrifices conducted by imperial rulers, one hundred animals are mentioned. It is totally false to state that Brahmins performed sacrifices only to satisfy their appetite for meat and that the talk of pleasing the deities was only a pretext. There are rules regarding the meat to be carved out from a sacrificial animal, the part of the body from which it is to be taken and the quantity each rtvik <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#RTVIK> can partake of as prasada (idavatarana). This is not more than the size of a pigeon-pea and it is to be swallowed without anything added to taste. There may be various reasons for you to attack the system of sacrifices but it would be preposterous to do so on the score that Brahmins practised deception by making them a pretext to eat meat. Nowadays a large number of animals are slaughtered in the laboratories as guinea-pigs. Animal sacrifices must be regarded as a little hurt caused in the cause of a great ideal, the welfare of mankind. As a matter of fact there is no hurt caused since the animal sacrificed attains to an elevated state. There is another falsehood spread these days, that Brahmins performed the somayajnas only as a pretext to drink somarasa (the essence of the soma plant). Those who propagate this lie add that drinking somarasa is akin to imbibing liquor or wine. As a matter of fact somarasa is not an intoxicating drink. There is a reference in the Vedas to Indra killing his foe when he was "intoxicated" with somarasa. People who spread the above falsehoods have recourse to " arthavada <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#ARTHAVADA>" and base their perverse views on this passage. The principle on which the physiology of deities is based is superior to that of humans. That apart, to say that the priests drank bottle after bottle of somarasa or pot after pot is to betray gross ignorance of the Vedic dharma. The soma plant is pounded and crushed in a small mortar called "graha". There are rules with regard to the quantity of essence to be offered to the gods. The small portion that remains after the oblation has been made, "huta-sesa", which is drunk drop by drop, does not add up to more than an ounce. No one has been knocked out by such drinking. They say that somarasa is not very palatable <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#NOT%20VERY%20PALATABLE>. . The preposterous suggestion is made that somarasa was the coffee of those times. There are Vedic mantras which speak about the joy aroused by drinking it. This has been misinterpreted. While coffee is injurious to the mind, somarasa cleanses it. It is absurd to equate the two. The soma plant was available in plenty in ancient times. Now it is becoming more and more scarce: this indeed is in keeping with the decline of Vedic dharma. In recent years, the Raja of Kollengode <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#KOLLENGODE> made it a point to supply the soma plant for the soma sacrifice wherever it was held. *Animal Sacrifice in the Age of Kali* An argument runs thus: In the eons gone by mankind possessed high ideals and noble character. Men could sacrifice animals for the well-being of the world because they had great affection in their hearts and were selfless. They offered even cows and horses in sacrifice and had meat for sraddha. As householders, in their middle years, they followed the karmamarga (the path of works) and performed rites to please the deities for the good of the world. But, in doing so, they desired no rewards. Later, they renounced all works, all puja, all observances, to become sannyasins delighting themselves in their Atman. They were men of such refinement and noble character that, if their brother, a king, died heirless they begot a son by his wife without any passion in their hearts and without a bit detracting from their brahmacharya. Their only motive was that the kingdom should not be plunged in anarchy for want of an heir to the throne. In our own Kali age we do not have such men who are desireless in their actions, who can subdue their minds and give up all works to become ascetics and who will remain chaste at heart even in the company of women. So it is contended that the following are to be eschewed in the Kali age: horse and cow sacrifices, meat in the sraddha ceremony, sannyasa, begetting a son by the husband's brother. As authority we have the following verse: *Asvalambham gavalambham sanyasam palapatrikam* *Devarena sutotpattim kalau panca vivarjayet* According to one view "asvalambham" in this verse should be substituted with "agniyadhanam <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#AGNIYADHANAM>". If you accept this version it would mean that even those sacrifices in which animals are not killed should not be performed. In other words it would mean a total prohibition of all sacrifices. The very first in the haviryajna category is agniyadhana. If that were to be prohibited it would mean that, apart from small sacrifices called "pakayajnas", no yajna can be performed. According to great men such a view is wrong. Sankara Bhagavatpada, whose mission in life was the re-establishment of Vedic dharma, did not stop with the admonishment that Vedas must be chanted every day ("Vedo nityam adhiyatam"). He insisted that rites imposed on us by the Vedas must be performed: " "Taduditam karma svanusthiyatam. " Of Vedic rites, sacrifices occupy the foremost place. If they are to be eschewed what other Vedic rites are we to perform? It may be that certain types of sacrifices need not be gone through in the age of Kali. If, according to the verse, agniyadhana is interdicted, and no big sacrifice is to be performed in the age of Kali, why should gavalambha (cow sacrifice) have been mentioned in the prohibited category? If agniyadhana is not permissible, it goes without saying that gavalambha also is prohibited. So, apart from certain types, all sacrifices are to be performed at all times. According to another verse quoted from the Dharmasastra, so long as the varnasrama system is followed in the age of Kali, in however small a measure, and so long as the sound of the Vedas pervades the air, works like agniyadhana must be performed and the sannyasasrama followed, the stage of life in which there is no karma. The prohibition in Kali applies to certain types of animal sacrifices, meat in sraddha ceremonies and begetting a son by the husband's brother. *Those who conduct Sacrifces* One who performs a yajna or sacrifice spending on the material and dakshina is called a "yajamana". "Yaj" (as we seen already) means to worship. The root meaning of "yajamana" is one who performs a sacrifice. In Tamil Nadu nowadays we refer to a "mudalali <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#MUDALALI>" as yajaman. It is the mudalali who pays the wages. So it is that we have given him the same place as the yajamana who pays dakshina in sacrifices. That even common folks refer to the mudalali as yajaman shows how deep-rooted the Vedic culture is in the Tamilland. There is another word which also testifies to the fact that Tamil Nadu is steeped in the Vedic tradition. A place where people are fed free is called a "cattiram" by Tamils. In the North the corresponding word for the sameis "dharamsala"(dharmasala). How would you explain the use of the word cattiram in the South? It is derived from "sattram" which is the name of a type of Vedic sacrifice. In other sacrifices there is only one yajamana who spends on the material and the dakshina. The priests recieve the dakshina from him and conduct the sacrifice on his behalf. In a sattra all are yajamanas. As we have mentioned earlier any sacrifice brings benefits to all mankind and also serves to cleanse the mind of all those who participate in it - even those who witness the rites are benefitted. But the merit accrues chiefly to the yajamana. The speciality of a sattra is that all the priests conducting it are yajamanas. It is a kind of socialist yajna in which the merit is equally shared. From this type of sacrifice has originated the term signifying a place or establishment where anyone can come and eat as a matter of right. In a cattiram the one who feeds does not consider himself superior to the one who eats. There is reason to believe that satras had a special place in the tradition of Tamil Nadu. Among the rtvik Brahmins there are three classes. The "hota"(hotr) chants the rks, the hymns from the Rgveda in praise of the deity, invoking the devata to accept the oblation. Because of the high place accorded to him in a sacrifice we hear even today the remark made with reference to anyone occupying a high position, " hota <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#HOTA>". The Rgveda is replete with hymns to various deities. The Yajurveda contains mostly the methods and directions for the conduct of sacrifices. The Brahmin who looks after the conduct of the sacrifice is the "adhvaryu". The "udgata"(udgatr) intones the mantras of the Samaveda to please the deities. There is a Brahmin supervising the sacrifice and he is called the brahma. The Vedas themselves are called "Brahma". That is why one who learns them (the student) is called a "brahmacharin". The supervisor of the sacrifice, brahma, performs his function in accordance with the Atharvaveda. Thus the hota, the adhvaryu, the udgata and the brahma represent the four Vedas in a sacrifice. In later times, however, the opinion emerged that the brahma is not connected with the Atharvaveda to the same extent as the hota, adhvaryu and udgata are connected respectively with the Rg, Yajur and Sama Vedas. In actual practice also we see that those taking part in sacrifices are conversant with the first three Vedas only and not with the Atharvaveda. For this reason the view is put forward that all sacrifices, from the somayaga to the asvamedha, are to be performed only on the basis of the Rg, Yajur and Sama Vedas <https://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/referp5b.htm#RG%20,%20YAJUR%20AND%20SAMA%20VEDAS> . There are sacrifices which come independently under the Atharvaveda. Acording to Valmiki's Ramayana, Indrajit performed the Nikhumbhila sacrifice mentioned in this Veda. The other three Vedas have a far wider following. Though we customarily speak of the four Vedas (Caturveda), the Rg, Yajur and Saman are bracketed together and specialy spoken of as "Trayi". (There are three types of sacrifices mentioned in the Atharvaveda: "santikam" for peace; "paustikam" for strength; and " abhicharikam" to bring injury to enemies). K RAJARAM IRS 8524 -- On Facebook, please join https://www.facebook.com/groups/keralaiyerstrust We are now on Telegram Mobile App also, please join Pattars/Kerala Iyers Discussions: https://t.me/PattarsGroup Kerala Iyers Trust Decisions only posts : https://t.me/KeralaIyersTrust Kerala Iyers Trust Group for Discussions: https://t.me/KeralaIyersTrustGroup --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "KeralaIyers" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to keralaiyers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/keralaiyers/CAL5XZoqXa3u05LxQ3KLOVM_2H%3DPBM%2BskLg_Eh9832eTC%2BX4Muw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/keralaiyers/CAL5XZoqXa3u05LxQ3KLOVM_2H%3DPBM%2BskLg_Eh9832eTC%2BX4Muw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "iyer123" group. 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