> On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Ben Laurie wrote:
> 
> > CAs have been arguing in other venues that using TLSA to validate in
> > the browser is inferior to using CAs because CAs are prepared to
> > revoke certificates that are used for bad things, whereas DNS
> > registrars/ICANN are not.
> 
> Of course, the registrant/DNS hoster itself _can_ and _should_ remove
> the TLSA record from DNS. Either when it used TLSA for pinning and the
> CA got compromised, or when the DNS provider itself got compromised.

I'm one of the CAs that have been arguing in other venues that using TLSA w/o 
PKIX validation is inferior to using CAs (w/ PKIX validation). Having an 
established mechanism for revocation is just one of the reasons I believe this. 
There are other reasons:

-       CA-issued certs will conform to CABF Baseline Requirements (minimum key 
size, strong signing and hashing algorithm, acceptable validity period, proper 
extensions). Most people would agree that an SSL cert shouldn't be used for 
more than a few years, but there's no provision in DANE for preventing 
long-term use of a single key.

-       CA-issued certs would be very likely to have undergone automated checks 
for weak keys, weak exponents, not on Debian weak key list, not on internal 
phish lists, etc.) But with DANE w/o PKIX, it's almost certain that no checking 
was performed for weak keys. The person who generated the key probably won't, 
and the DNS operator probably won't either, because they're not required to. 

-       If you move away from the CA model to a DNSSEC-based DANE w/o PKI, 
you're shifting your trust to the operators of the various DNS zones and 
domains (for DNSSEC PKI) and to millions of individual domain owners (for 
generating and maintaining their keys). None of those entities are subject to 
audit like the CAs are, and it's reasonable to assume that without standards 
we'll have good ones and bad ones. That makes the end user less safe, in my 
opinion.

I actually like DANE. I think that it's a great addition to PKIX validation, 
but not a substitute for it. If we allow sites to use DANE w/o PKIX, I believe 
we're opening the door to poor PKI practices (which arguably have been 
tightened up over the past few years by CABF). We're also allowing 
attackers/phishers to create fraudulent web sites with SSL certs that appear to 
be as trusted as legitimate sites.

> > This is, of course, why Certificate Transparency exists, so everyone
> > can see what's going on. Neither TLSA nor CAs are adequate, IMO.

I presume that CT will allow an auditor to see the actual cert that was issued, 
so an auditor could take over some of the functions that a CA currently 
performs (checking for key size, weak exponent, Debian, key lifetime, etc.). 
But CT doesn't require anyone to do that, nor does it impose any requirements 
on the auditor.

-Rick 
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