You go, Jennifer! +1! On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Jennifer Walker <[email protected] > wrote:
> Way to take the passive-aggressive 'it's not us, it's them--the readers' > path, guys. > > You know, I get it, from a business standpoint you supply what people > demand. Fair enough. But what would be really fair would be to give an even > shot to the alternative: in this case women in, oh, real armor instead of > the gravity-defying dental floss that passes for "protection" on the page. > And let me tell you, gents, big boobs are NOT an asset to dexterity in > daily life, I can only imagine the hindrance they'd be in any sort of > combat situation. > > The women I know who do read superhero comics (note: I am not one of them) > do so in spite of the sexist treatment of the female characters, and the > answer isn't that "oh, the males are just as objectified." Twilight is a > great example of the power of a fangirl (leaving aside the disturbing > messages within that particular work), so just imagine if the feminist > comic reader (male and female alike) were given strong characters of both > sexes treated with respect and not as hood ornaments. > > Acting like their hands are tied by their readership may help them sleep > at night, but putting all their creative eggs in one basket gives the > readership no option to show if they'd like their supes sunny side up or > over easy. > > End rant... > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Cary Preston <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/08/08/2433121/legendary-superhero-creators-the-comics-follow-society-they-dont-lead-suggest-women-look-elsewhere/ >> >> Legendary Comics Creators Dismiss Sexism Critiques, Say ‘The Comics >> Follow Society. They Don’t Lead.’ >> >> By Alyssa Rosenberg <http://thinkprogress.org/author/arosenberg/> on August >> 8, 2013 at 11:02 am >> [image: Michael Kantor, Todd McFarlane, Len Wein and Gerry Conway at >> the Television Critics Association press tour. Credit: LA Times] >> >> Michael Kantor, Todd McFarlane, Len Wein and Gerry Conway at the >> Television Critics Association press tour. Credit: LA Times >> >> “The vast majority of dudes [are] doing this high testosterone sort of >> storytelling, and so we put our fantasy on the plate on the pages,” Spawn >> creator Todd McFarlane said at the Television Critics Association press >> tour on Wednesday, where he was promoting *Superheroes: The Never-Ending >> Battle*, a long-gestating documentary about history of American comics. >> “As much as we stereotype the women, we do it with the guys. The guys are >> all good looking, not too many ugly superheroes. They’ve all got their hair >> gelled back. They have got perfect pecs on them. They have no hair on their >> chest. I mean, they are Ryan Gosling on steroids. Right? They are all >> beautiful. So we actually stereotype and do it to both sexes. We just >> happen to show a little more skin when we get to the ladies.” >> >> That McFarlane would say this isn’t exactly surprising. It’s an ancient >> canard that male heroes are as idealized as women, an idea that ignores >> their costumes <http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/>, the difference >> between a fantasy of power you want to inhabit and sexual ability you want >> to take advantage of, and the contrast between admiring what someone can do >> with their body, and what you can do to theirs. But when I followed up with >> McFarlane, Wolverine creator Len Wein, and The Punisher creator Gerry >> Conway, the presentation became a showcase for a kind of attitude that’s >> far from universal in comics, but that still exerts considerable power >> among both creators and consumers of comics. In Conway’s words, “the comics >> follow society. They don’t lead society.” And the society they follow is >> all too comfortable with McFarlane the fantasies of artists like him >> dominating superhero comics. >> >> “There’s nothing stopping the people that want to do those from doing >> it,” McFarlane said when I asked if the dominance of the kinds of images >> he’s produced suggests a creative stagnation in superhero comics. Conway >> agreed, saying that “There may be some people who are actually very, very >> passionate to do that themselves, and they should. I mean, I don’t think >> there’s a barrier necessarily in the field. There’s certainly a barrier at >> the two main companies for new talent,” in a nod to my point to McFarlane >> that the employment levels of women and people of color at major comics >> companies are extraordinarily low. I agree it would be dandy if people who >> appear to be systematically excluded from mainstream superhero comics could >> simply start their own successful imprints, but that ignores the >> considerable advantages of publishing your work through and with the >> support of a major comics house. >> >> And Conway, McFarlane, and Wein all defaulted to another line of >> argument: that anyone asking for more diverse superhero comics is >> effectively asking for an entitlement that won’t produce good storytelling. >> >> “There hasn’t really been historically a comic book that has worked that >> is trying to get across a kind of message, if you will,” McFarlane >> insisted. “So the female characters that work are the ones that are just >> strong women that actually it’s good storytelling, and the odd character >> that is a minority that works is the one that is just a good strong >> character. They’ve tried to do minority characters and bring that label and >> that surrounding [debate] into it. You’re aware that you’re reading a >> minority comic book. I think it’s wrong.” >> >> Wein took the position that the best way to pursue equality in comics was >> through strict race neutrality. >> >> “I think every time you take a female character, a black character, a >> Hispanic character, a gay character, and make that the point of the >> character, you are minimalizing the character,” he said. “I have written >> anything you can possibly think of. I have created Storm who was the first >> black female superhero. I created a number of other characters, and it >> never matters to me what the color of their skin was. I was writing about >> who they were as human beings, and it wasn’t Black Storm. She was Storm.” >> >> Eric Jerome Dickey, who wrote a Storm arc in which she married Black >> Panther and becomes co-ruler of Wakanda, an independent African nation that >> stands in explicit resistance to Western imperialism, might have a few >> things to say about the possibilities of acknowledging Storm’s origins >> while foregrounding her personality had he been present. But it wasn’t a >> balancing act any of the comics creators on the dias seemed prepared to >> acknowledge. >> >> “And, now, this is not to say you’re confusing superheroes with the >> industry, because there are a lot of comic books,” Conway told me. “My >> daughter — the only actual comic books she will read is by a girl named >> Faith Erin Hicks, who writes stories that speak to her. So she’s not >> interested in the guy stories. She’s interested in this woman’s stories. >> And I think it’s a mistake to sort of, like, pigeonhole superheroes, or to >> add so much to superheroes that you’re missing the fact it’s a genre within >> itself. It’s like saying, ‘Why are there no medieval stories about female >> knights?’ Because there was only one, you know, Joan of Arc. It’s not it’s >> an inherent limitation of that particular genre, superheroes.” (It’s odd >> that Conway suggests that Hicks’ comics, which include *The Adventures >> of Superhero Girl <http://superherogirladventures.blogspot.com/>*, are >> somehow separate from superhero comics.) >> >> And McFarlane suggested that he’d steer his own daughters in a different >> direction to empower them — not because superhero comics promote damaging >> images of women, but because they are the natural preserve of men. >> >> “It might not be the right platform,” he said. “I’ve got two daughters, >> and if I wanted to do something that I thought was emboldened to a female, >> I probably wouldn’t choose superhero comic books to get that message >> across. I would do it in either a TV show, a movie, a novel, or a book. It >> wouldn’t be superheroes because I know that’s heavily testosterone — >> driven, and it’s a certain kind of group of people. That’s not where I >> would go get this kind of message, so it might not be the right platform >> for some of this.” >> >> And his and McFarlane’s arguments, of course, ignore that superheroes *don’t >> actually exist*, and that the production of superhero comics is not >> actually a biological function determined by whatever bodies we’re born >> with. A lack of equality in the nobility’s ranks in the medieval military >> hasn’t kept Tamora Pierce from writing dozens of fantasy novels involving >> female knights, because that is a thing that you can do in fiction. If >> superheroes actually existed, and their ranks were exclusively male, >> writing fantastical fiction to consider how women might handle that sort of >> power, and how the world might react to their use of it would be a *perfectly >> legitimate* subject for superhero fiction to explore. And having two X >> chromosomes hasn’t actually kept women like Gail >> Simone<http://claysad.tumblr.com/post/57615124662/gail-simones-twitter-feed-from-this-morning-i>from >> writing wonderful characters of both sexes for decades–nor has >> possession of a Y chromosome kept men like Dan Slott and Jeff Parker from >> doing well by characters like She-Hulk and Red She-Hulk. The decision to >> stay within the narrow lanes of your own fantasies is a choice, not >> biological determinism. >> >> When the creators weren’t suggesting that comics are in some way >> biologically determined, they were suggesting that the failure of more >> diverse representations of superheroes was on readers, not on the companies >> that decide what kinds of images to promote and what kinds of artists they >> want to employ. >> >> “I think the bigger question is why are readers not interested in those?” >> Conway asked. >> >> What’s a shame about the panel is that it doesn’t represent anything >> close to the breadth of perspectives in the documentary itself, which as >> executive producer Michael Kantor pointed out, includes women like Jenette >> Kahn, who as head of DC Comics was one of the youngest presidents ever of a >> Fortune 500 company, and in the sections I’ve seen, is thoughtful about why >> the comics industry has shrunk. >> >> It’s a shame because there are good and nuanced arguments to be had about >> tokenism in comics. “When Stan Lee introduces Luke Cage and the Black >> Panther in the ’60s, there’s a level of tokenism to that, but it also >> reflects the growing Civil Rights movement,” Kantor suggested, drawing out >> the fact that the desire to reflect a historical moment can coexist with >> less attractive commercial impulses. But wanting a greater breadth of >> storytelling, and hoping a medium reaches its full storytelling potential >> is not the same thing as tokenism. >> >> And it’s a shame because these men clearly are capable of thinking >> critically about genre if not about gender. >> >> “I think part of the issue is that the people who are making these movies >> feel that the basic that the origin story is the story, that there is no >> other story that you can tell about a superhero,” Conway said at one point >> in the panel before I jumped in, making an argument I’ve made frequently in >> this space, and that I wholeheartedly agree with. “I think they missed the >> point that these characters can be plugged into almost any story structure. >> They are focused on the origin story because that’s sort of what they think >> superheroes are. You know, their these little mythic creations that are >> about an unempowered person becoming empowered. But of course they are not. >> They are symbolic of a larger story telling structure. They are modern >> myths so they can tell any story you want to. They can tell about the story >> of the fall of a good man.” >> >> But there he was, saying that superhero comics couldn’t get out ahead of >> society. “That seems like an unambitious position,” I told him. One might >> even say it’s decidedly less than superheroic. >> >> By clicking and submitting a comment I acknowledge the ThinkProgress >> Privacy >> Policy<http://www.americanprogressaction.org/about/privacy-policy/>and agree >> to the ThinkProgress >> Terms of Use <http://thinkprogress.org/terms/>. I understand that my >> comments are also being governed by Facebook, Yahoo, AOL, or Hotmail’s >> Terms of Use and Privacy Policies as applicable, which can be found >> here<http://thinkprogress.org/terms/> >> . >> >> **** >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "The Unique Geek" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/theuniquegeek. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > Jennifer "Scraps" Walker > > The Helper Monkey Network > http://www.jenniferwalkeronline.com > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Unique Geek" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/theuniquegeek. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Unique Geek" group. 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