Hi Josiah > You are using "universal" in a way I am not quite.
I’m using it to mean a technique that works with all browser configurations. > I focusing mainly on first experience. Someone who does NOT understand, or > stumbles at the relation between the HTML5 universalish save and what happens > next. Do you mean that you are concerned with users who do not understand the mechanism by which saving happens? I don’t think that changes anything. Those users are best served by the user experience of something like TiddlyFox, not by the HTML5 fallback saver. Because, as established, the fallback saver has a poor user experience for users who don’t understand what’s going on. > So my point is in the spot of "sadly it doesn't exist." I'm thinking about > the best approximations to what does exist and wondering it can be > implemented wider. Something like that. > > For instance a TiddlyFox for every browser. Not wanting to create work so > much as noting TiddlyWiki's reach & uptake is, I believe, currently hampered > by how browsers work. None of the other browsers allow JavaScript extensions direct and full access to the filesystem. Some browsers (like Chrome) provide access to a sandboxed filesystem (I believe that is how TiddlyChrome works), but they don’t generally allow access to arbitrary files. Anyhow, if your concern is primarily beginners then I suspect that very often the entire concept of working with an offline file is alien for them. I think that most of the time, those users are best served with an online TiddlyWiki configuration. That’s the configuration that minimises the new things that users need to learn in order to use TiddlyWiki, because it behaves like any other online service. Fundamentally, to use TiddlyWiki locally, users must become their own sysadmin. They have sole responsibility for managing and protecting their data. That responsibility requires a level of understanding and awareness. That’s a small price for those of us that value the ability to work offline, but erects a fundamental barrier for beginners who don’t have the inclination to learn. Best wishes Jeremy > > Best wishes > Josiah > > > On Tuesday, 15 November 2016 20:02:40 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote: > Hi Josiah > >> On FILE SAVING my point is that the save is not re-entrant under normal >> conditions. That is my understanding. You can save but you then have to open >> the thing in a new >> instance? Have I understood correctly? > > That's exactly what I meant about the confusing user experience, and > potential for human error. > >> Part of what I am getting at, I think, is naive users when coming across TW >> can get befuddled when its not re-entrant. I myself have frequently got >> confused using it in Opera. Save. Open. Which tab is which? You get the idea? > > Yes, I think you're saying that the default fallback saver is confusing for > users. That's true, but it's the best we've got. > >> PouchDB we discussed, yes. I just think its a neat example that works pretty >> damn well. I agree its not really a universal portable solution. > > It works OK for demos and temporary caching before syncing to a server. But > it wouldn't be suitable for, say, writing a novel: would you really want > weeks of work locked up in a browser where it can be arbitrarily deleted at > will by the browser? Local storage is designed for caching, and present > implementations are not robust for other usages. > >> I think my broad question is still valid. Of course I'm very much focused on >> people like me who like TiddlyWiki but find the saving aspect of it odd. I'm >> sure I'm not alone. Really I want it as always re-entrant software behaves. > > What is the question are you asking? > > We've established that we have a near-universal saving technique with > usability issues, and more specialised techniques that don't have the > usability issues. I am sure we'd all love a universal technique that doesn't > have the usability issues, but sadly it doesn't exist. > > Best wishes > > Jeremy. > >> >> Best wishes >> Josiah >> >> On Tuesday, 15 November 2016 18:21:48 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote: >> Hi Josiah >> >> There is already a near-universal solution to saving changes within the >> browser: the built-in HTML5-compatible “download saver”. It works on >> practically all desktop browsers, and many mobile browsers. However, the >> user experience is poor, and there is scope for human error. >> >> Apart from the universal, fallback saver, we’ve got more specialised savers >> that work in specific environments. For example, the saver for TiddlySpot, >> or TiddlyFox, or the one that works with Windows HTA files. >> >> So, I’m not sure what you’re asking. I don’t think that the HTML5 standard >> contains any overlooked mechanisms that can allow TiddlyWiki saves changes. >> I am not aware of any non-standardised browser features that help us, either. >> >> Finally, you mention PouchDB. Again, as we’ve discussed before, there’s >> nothing magical going on there. Data is saved to one of several HTML5 local >> storage mechanisms. TiddlyWiki5 could use those mechanisms to save changes, >> but it’s scarcely a replacement for the standard saving mechanism because >> ones data remains locked up within the browser, and can’t easily be >> transported elsewhere. >> >> Best wishes >> >> Jeremy >> >> >>> On 15 Nov 2016, at 16:45, Josiah <[email protected] <>> wrote: >>> >>> Ciao >>> >>> TiddlyWiki can be opened in any browser on any device running any platform >>> that supports JavaScript. >>> >>> However it can't currently be saved in a consistent way across them. >>> >>> And on mobile devices its look is often messy. >>> >>> I'm wondering if there is a UNIVERSAL solution to this? >>> >>> Like combining Riz's mobile theme (that looks excellent on all devices I've >>> looked at it---AND for normal screens too ... Looks good as the default) >>> .... >>> >>> ... with Daniello's saving mechanism (using pouchDB) that functions well >>> over several platforms? >>> >>> In any case I guess I'm making a point that for the broader user-base the >>> more Universal and consistent the behaviour of the starting TiddlyWiki you >>> download is the better. >>> >>> Best wishes >>> Josiah >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "TiddlyWiki" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] <>. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] <>. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki >>> <https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7c1f1786-bda7-4fd3-af70-d1361994448f%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7c1f1786-bda7-4fd3-af70-d1361994448f%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TiddlyWiki" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to tiddlywiki+...@ <>googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>. >> To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@ <>googlegroups.com >> <http://googlegroups.com/>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki >> <https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/3a7d3f4c-c8a1-428a-b969-b458257b66e5%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/3a7d3f4c-c8a1-428a-b969-b458257b66e5%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TiddlyWiki" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki > <https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/665c8443-dc3e-4c7e-a49e-5452788b2a3d%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/665c8443-dc3e-4c7e-a49e-5452788b2a3d%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. 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