Sure. I'd ask you not to assume anything about my background as you're likely to be wrong.
My point is that I can FEEL the power that's in TW5, but it is obfuscated. I suspect most users get over it and after a while can't remember the pain it takes to use beyond the very very basics. I want to use this tool (or something like it) for a non-technical hobby. I'd expect a wiki tool to be pretty much non-technical and aimed at the casual user. After writing code and mentoring others all week I don't usually want to learn another tool that I can't leverage in my career, and TW5 is teetering on the brink of being just that too much technical to use. That said, a tutorial or two on doing simple things like "How do I create lists of tiddlers that have something in common, like a table of contents?" would go a long ways towards making this easier for everyone. On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 4:58:32 PM UTC-5, TonyM wrote: > > Jeff, > > There has being a lot of "water under the bridge" in this thread. I think > its important to recognise there are a couple of new concepts in TiddlyWiki > that also makes it a powerful solution. until grasped it can be a little > frustrating, and from my experience it can be a little more difficult for > those with a lot of procedural programming language experience. > > The payoff is great so please bare with it. > > As a community we each have the power to improve TiddlyWiki so please > continue to contribute. > > Regards > Tony > > On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 8:12:36 AM UTC+11, Jeff Wilson wrote: >> >> Unnecessary (accidental) complexity is NEVER justified. Essential >> complexity is something we have to live with. >> >> Simplicity is obtained when all accidental complexity is removed. I have >> no problem with complex tools; I use source code IDEs like Intellij, Visual >> Code, and Eclipse almost everyday. >> >> Undoubtedly much of my problems with TiddlyWiki is that I don't have a >> good mental model of how it works. But the documentation is awful, so that >> does not help. For example, I was trying to figure out how to create a list >> of all tiddlers with a tag equal to the name of the current page. Where do >> I find that information? I type "list" in the search field, and I get 323 >> matches. The first one that looks reasonable is "list Operator", so I click >> on that and get something like this: >> purpose select titles via a list field >> input <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Filter%20Syntax> ignored >> ! input a selection of titles <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Title%20Selection> >> parameter <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Filter%20Parameter> R = a reference >> <https://tiddlywiki.com/#TextReference> to a field >> <https://tiddlywiki.com/#TiddlerFields> or property >> <https://tiddlywiki.com/#DataTiddlers> of a particular tiddler >> output the titles stored as a title list >> <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Title%20List> at R >> ! output those input titles that are not mentioned at R >> >> R can reference either a field or a property. See TextReference >> <https://tiddlywiki.com/#TextReference> for the syntax. >> >> - If neither is specified, the list field is used by default. So >> [list[T]] outputs the titles listed in the list of tiddler T. >> - If R consists of only a field or a property, the tiddler part of >> the reference defaults to the current tiddler >> <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Current%20Tiddler>. So [list[!!tags]] outputs >> the titles listed in the tags field of the current tiddler. >> >> Examples <https://tiddlywiki.com/#list%20Operator%20(Examples)> >> >> Ooookay... I don't know if that helps or not. Let's click the "Examples" >> link: >> >> These examples make use of the Days of the Week >> <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Days%20of%20the%20Week> tiddler. >> >> [list[HelloThere]]Try it >> >> [list[Days of the Week!!short]]Try it >> >> At this point, I still don't know what to type in my tiddler. It looks >> like it should be something like "[list[<foo>]]" where foo somehow >> indicates "all tiddlers with a tag equal to the title of the current page", >> but there's not clue how to figure out what "foo" should really be. >> >> Sometime later I find the tiddler, "ListWidget". Clicking that is >> promising, this one actually looks like it might be the right thing. One of >> the examples is: >> >> <$list filter="[tag[ListWidget]sort[title]"/> >> >> This actually works, but it requires me to type the name of the current >> tiddler as the tag name. Surely there's a way to get the title of the >> current tiddler to automatically populate?? Somewhere I read that the title >> of the current Tiddler was in a field that could be referenced like >> "!!title". Try that, and no dice. >> >> So, I reason, there must be a link to the filter syntax on this page, and >> sure enough, here it is! "tiddler filter"! I click that and get a huge list >> of filters, but never fear, there are short descriptions and links to >> describe each. I randomly click around on several trying to figure out >> which one works for my usecase, but can't seem to find one suitable. Or >> maybe I'm not giving it the right parameters. Who knows!? >> >> I eventually (hours later) find an example in another user's TiddlyWiki. >> (For the record, I'm using filter="[all[current]tagging[]sort[title]]". It >> works. I don't know if it is the best filter to use for my example, but >> hey, at this point I will accept anything that moves me forward.) I don't >> know if I would have ever figured out that particular combination of >> filters, but hey, whatever. >> >> Now my task was easy, and it was probably a super, super common usecase: >> I want to create a page hierarchy and be able to view that hierarchy. >> Shouldn't there be an article or tutorial somewhere on common ways to >> structure Tiddlers? >> >> Sorry for the long rant, but I'm rather upset that I've wasted two days >> on this tool. >> >> >> >> On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 10:23:06 PM UTC-5, TonyM wrote: >>> >>> I empathise, and have thought the same way, but I am starting to see how >>> tiddlywiki raises our expectations to exceed what it currently achives. >>> Most often a work around exists, or the community starts to digest changes >>> to come. The key is the community, conversations and change. Its not that >>> tw is not mature, its that it continues to evolve even although in many >>> respects it already surpasses the competition in capabilities (if not >>> simplicity). >>> >>> In my view Far too often today, simplicity is the result of the startup >>> culture, which wants to profit from minimalist solutions, to fund the >>> development of more comprehencive solutions by charging and taxing their >>> very same clients. *Unnesasary compexity *is desirable but not at the >>> cost of capability, unnessasariily simple things fragment what we need to >>> use into too many parts. >>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. 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