Hi If you are reading something below 60C on a dewar flask outer oven …. it is borken….. very broken.
Bob > On Feb 12, 2021, at 7:25 PM, paul swed <[email protected]> wrote: > > The temps I am reading are with a K thermocouple so pretty accurate. I had > simply slid the thermocouple into the flask on the outer edge of the > ovens.The assembly is out of the flask now and both inner and outer are > heating. Will see what they do. Both seem to be heating at about the same > rate. So the great news is the oven windings are not bad. I do see a very > significant voltage difference on two leads that I might guess matter. But > still decoding and reverse engineering everything. > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 5:20 PM Bob kb8tq <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> According to table 1-2 in: >> >> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq-eimb.pdf < >> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq-eimb.pdf> >> >> The URQ-9 and URQ-10 both were rated for 0 to 50C. >> >> Per: >> >> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq23-MIL-T-28816.pdf < >> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq23-MIL-T-28816.pdf> >> >> The URQ-23 was rated for 0 to 50C >> >> I’d say it’s a pretty likely that the URQ-13 was rated to operate over >> 0 to 50C. It went into the same locations and did the same thing as the >> other devices. >> >> Bob >> >> >>> On Feb 12, 2021, at 1:07 PM, paul swed <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Well there is no doubt someone has been deep into this unit. Hint missing >>> screws internally. >>> But appears both heater windings are ok. >>> So inner and outer oven has a new meaning. I typically understood this to >>> be one oven in another oven. Think the HP CS units of old. The same in >>> other places HP3801. >>> But in the URQ13 it means there is a long tube. The Dewar flask. The >> inner >>> is deep into the flask and the outer is close to the opening. Two >>> completely separate heaters. Under the outer heater I will guess is the >>> actual oscillator for the 5 MHz. Further out from the outer heater are >> the >>> offset variable caps thermistor for the outer oven a pot and IC. >>> Several screws hold this outer heater on and considering the risk of >> taking >>> out the remainders to look and draw a schematic. >>> Regards >>> Paul >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:28 AM paul swed <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes Bob they could get hot. But the radio rooms I have been in circa >> 1970s >>>> were all air conditioned from destroyers to aircraft carriers. Shirt >>>> sleeve. The best place to actually be when we were down by the equator >> was >>>> the radio room, ET shop, CIC and radar and just maybe the Captain's >>>> stateroom. But if you were actually there you might still be sweating. >>>> Chuckle. >>>> This conversation has given me some good insights. Later today I will >>>> disable the outer oven. Just curious to see what possible temps might >> show >>>> up. Is the inner oven simply reading outer oven leakage. Is there a >> lead I >>>> can measure the current of the inner oven.... >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:18 AM Bob kb8tq <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> If it’s 105F “outdoors” that’s 40C. Military gear back in the days of >> the >>>>> URQ10 >>>>> did not live in air conditioned enclosures. It did get deployed to >> places >>>>> with >>>>> temperatures at or above that level. >>>>> >>>>> If it’s 40C outdoors, by the time you get to a pile of electronics gear >>>>> *indoors*, >>>>> a >10C rise is pretty likely. That drives a very common 50C “upper end” >>>>> temperature >>>>> on ground gear in relatively benign installations. >>>>> >>>>> This does not just apply to military gear. If you look through test >>>>> equipment >>>>> catalogs, a lot of test gear also has the same sort of 50 to 60C upper >>>>> end spec. >>>>> The 5065A has a spec of 0 to 50C. The 5061A has the same spec. Both >>>>> targeted >>>>> pretty “normal” environments …. ( = they never get below freezing …) >> and >>>>> date >>>>> to the “era” of the URQ10. >>>>> >>>>> In this era of HVAC everywhere, the 5071A has a temp range of 0 to 55C. >>>>> If >>>>> anything, this would suggest that things still can get pretty hot. >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 12, 2021, at 10:29 AM, paul swed <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> OK there is the math. and that all starts to line up. >>>>>> So most likely for other URQ units there will be an ambient max in the >>>>>> spec's. At least on the URQ10 in real life even in the hot tropics the >>>>>> radio room was shirt sleeve temps. >>>>>> But the question asked was 110 F correct as measured on the outside of >>>>> the >>>>>> outer oven against the dewar flask correct. It isn't. The darn thing >> is >>>>>> reasonably stable though. >>>>>> Since the front panel test switch is not labeled I speculate that the >>>>>> position for the outer oven is in the normal range. The next switch >>>>>> position most likely is inner and is not in the correct position. It >>>>> slowly >>>>>> moves to the high side. >>>>>> No real details on anything and a total guess. >>>>>> Really appreciate the thoughts. >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Paul >>>>>> WB8TSL >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:18 AM Bob kb8tq <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Indeed the outer oven (as a minimum) needs to be 5 to 10 C above >>>>>>> the maximum ambient. If it’s not it goes out of regulation (runs >> away) >>>>>>> and you loose any benefit from it. ( = it now works against you ). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The inner oven as a minimum needs to be 5 to 10 C above the outer >>>>>>> oven. Again if it is lower, you can / will get into the same runaway >>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Those offsets are dependent on the way things are insulated. If you >> are >>>>>>> using a dewar flask, 5C is probably not going to work for you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your inner oven *also* is impacted by the turn temperature on the >>>>> crystal >>>>>>> being used. This *might* have a 20C range. That would put the maximum >>>>>>> inner oven temperature at 10 + 10 + 20 = 40C above the maximum >> ambient. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Needless to say, if the max ambient is 85C, this will get the inner >>>>> oven >>>>>>> components up pretty hot. That’s not a real good idea. Derating the >>>>> heater >>>>>>> is pretty easy, derating *everything* in there is much more complex. >>>>> You >>>>>>> do not often see 85C upper end double ovens …. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One *could* also ask: “is all this worth it?”. List members *have* >>>>> written >>>>>>> papers addressing that point :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 10:05 PM, Paul Alfille <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shouldn't the outer oven be cooler than the inner oven except during >>>>>>>> warmup? I would think the inner electronics would be generating >> heat. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Paul Alfille K1PHA >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 9:30 PM paul swed <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 50C is what I have sort of seen over the years. Just wondered could >>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> have been a lower temp version. That made no sense. But then this >>>>> beast >>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>> never made a lot of sense. The $20 mystery from Frequency >>>>> Electronics. >>>>>>>>> Thanks Bob >>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>> WB8TSL >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 8:08 PM Bob kb8tq <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Even for an outer oven, anything below 60C / 140F would be low >>>>> enough >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> run into significant problems. On a mil device, an upper end >>>>>>> temperature >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> the equipment likely would be over 70C. The outer oven would need >>>>> to be >>>>>>>>>> 5 to 10C above that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:55 PM, paul swed <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> OK I have had several responses and 110F is low as I expected. >>>>>>>>>>> Wonder if I am being faked out? Perhaps by an inner oven and I am >>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>> reading the outside of the outer oven. The Older URQ10 and newer >>>>> URQ23 >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> have 2 ovens. The meter switch for test is only labeled 1-9. no >>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> clues >>>>>>>>>>> to the function. I noticed 2 positions change with warm up. Sort >> of >>>>>>>>>>> supports the 2 oven theory. >>>>>>>>>>> Really do not want to take what might be the outer oven off to >> put >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> probe in. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks everyone. >>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 5:32 PM Bob kb8tq <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 110 F makes very little sense unless you are in a very cold >>>>> climate. >>>>>>>>>>>> For military gear (or any gear for that matter) 43C on the oven >>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t work. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 110 C would make sense in a very high temperature environment. >>>>>>>>>>>> (think of 85C upper end ….). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 2:18 PM, paul swed <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello to the group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had a AN/URQ-13 or FE-15a oven oscillator for years. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Its never worked correctly and in reality some early alpha >> build. >>>>>>>>>> (Funny >>>>>>>>>>>>> that its labeled 15a) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Looking online there is no documentation that I have been able >> to >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>>> the years. >>>>>>>>>>>>> However in another discussion on a AN/URQ-23 that does have a >>>>> manual >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> schematics I realized my guesses on power could be totally >> wrong. >>>>>>>>> Using >>>>>>>>>>>>> voltages like the URQ23 the URQ13 actually behaves fairly >> well. I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>>> lucky >>>>>>>>>>>>> that I didn't destroy something with my original guess. >>>>>>>>>>>>> That said what I find odd is the internal crystal oven runs at >>>>>>>>> exactly >>>>>>>>>>>> 110 >>>>>>>>>>>>> degrees. Its repeatably warms to that level with a range of >>>>> supply >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> +/- >>>>>>>>>>>>> 12-15V. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Does 110 degrees F make any sense at all? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
