On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Payam Heidary wrote: Payam-
I currently teach (and have taught) students to write in APA style for about 30 years. In addition, I have published in several APA journals. I am well aware of APA (5) style as currently dictated. I am also familiar with APA 4, APA 3, ... well, I don't want to go there because it would just make me feel old. While I am aware of the APA rules regarding trivia (e.g. margins, font size, spacing, etc.) I am also aware of the more important aspects of scientific writing: Clarity, Concision and Precision. When I teach my students APA style I tend to worry less about the ephemera like margins & focus more on Clarity of expression, Concise style & Precise recording of events. I feel that a clear, concise and precise paper with improper margins beats an unclear, inconcise and imprecise paper with proper margins any day. You are free to differ. Please remember when you teach your students that the APA does not publish RULES. They publish guidelines. Please also note that these guidelines change with each iteration of the APA manual. They are not tablets in stone sent from above but attempts by committees to help harried editors in their thankless task of publishing the volumes of work spewing from the research mills. You state, in part, "The students have the book and I repeat what is in the book to them as well. So why is there a need to provide or do anything else?" I could, as well, ask if the students have the book why do you feel it is necessary to repeat what is in the book? Can't your students read? The answer is, I think, that our role as faculty goes far beyond teaching students, "what is in the book." Part of our role is teaching them WHY it is in the book. Another part of our role is getting them to QUESTION why it is in the book. But I think that the greatest part of our role is to share with them the joy & wonder of this science so that they WANT to read the book. I don't spoon feed my students. My course is usually referred to as either "Boot Camp" or "The Course From Hell". Yet, strangely, it is fully enrolled every semester & I always have a waiting list. I suggested that you provide students with a checklist because it will 1. underscore your desire that they produce their assignments in compliance with the current APA guidelines and 2. allow you more time to deal with the more important aspects of scientific writing. I will also suggest that you may gain some benefit from examining your teaching style. A more Authoritative, rather than an Authoritarian style (ALA Baumrind) may produce the results that you are looking for. All the best, -Don. > Don, > > Let me ask you a question. Do you teach or have you > taught any class where you have to teach students to > write APA style papers? My assumption is that you have > not based on your response. If you have you would know > that margin sizes and spaces between text are all APA > RULES of writing papers and not mine. These are APA > "trivial events" that I have to teach and make sure > that students follow. You would also know that inside > the APA manual there is specific information on format > and structure including margin sizes, spacing, etc. > These are critical aspects of APA style and are not my > critical wants! The students have the book and I > repeat what is in the book to them as well. So why is > there a need to provide or do anything else? You still > suggest to provide a checklist of some sort? Why not > just say to also write the paper for them? Our job is > to teach students how to hold their spoons straight so > they can feed themselves and not to actually put the > spoon in their mouth and feed them like little > children. These are adults. These are college > students. They should follow instructions > appropriately especially when you give them several > chances and opportunities and they still fail to > follow the most basic and simple instructions. > > Payam > > > > > --- Don Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Payam- > > > > I thinks what a number of people have tried to tell > > you is that you may want > > to focus on your own behaviour rather than that of > > your students. When you > > say things like, "...especially when you have told > > them a zillion times!!" I > > am left with the impression that you are > > over-reacting to trivial events. If > > margin size & spacing are so critically important to > > you then have you > > considered providing students with a checklist to be > > attached to every paper? > > On this list you could enumerate all of the items > > that bother you and insist > > that students turn in their papers with the > > checklist as a cover page. This > > will help students focus on what you think are > > important issues. Of course, > > this will not work with every student. Some truly > > are apathetic. However, a > > lot of students are just having difficulty > > distinguishing between signal & > > noise. Maybe they were so focused on the content > > that they neglected the > > form. Since merely repeating your instructions has > > proven to be ineffective > > (after all, you've told them "a zillion times') > > maybe you should consider > > another technique. > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > -Don. > > > > Payam Heidary wrote: > > > > > I don't expect rough drafts to be "letter > > perfect." > > > When did I say that? Did I say that? NO. > > > What I expect is for students to follow the most > > > simple instructions such as margin size and > > spacing > > > especially when you have told them a zillion > > times!! > > > > > > Payam > > > > > > --- Charlotte Manly > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > Is this the attitude you routinely project in > > the > > > > classroom? It sounds like you think your > > students > > > > are complete idiots and incapable of > > improvement. > > > > Even if they lack much knowledge and skill, it > > can't > > > > help your teaching to imply that they are > > idiots. > > > > > > > > And why do you expect rough drafts to be > > > > letter-perfect? You haven't mentioned how the > > final > > > > drafts turn out. As long as the rough draft is > > > > legible and the final draft follows APA > > guidelines, > > > > how important is it if the rough draft follows > > those > > > > guidelines? Is the point of a rough draft with > > > > feedback to improve content, or to see how well > > > > students can write in APA style? You also > > haven't > > > > mentioned how you handle grading of rough and > > final > > > > drafts, but from recent discussions on this > > list, > > > > those reward contingencies are important in > > shaping > > > > student behavior. > > > > > > > > Charlotte > > > > > > > > >I think most of you agree with me now that > > adjuncts > > > > >are terribly EXPLOITED and poorly paid in > > > > comparison > > > > >to their full-time counterparts. Anyone who > > > > disagrees > > > > >is attempting to distort reality. > > > > > > > > > >Now to the next topic.... > > > > > > > > > >Let me hear what you other professors have to > > say > > > > >about why students REPEATEDLY fail to follow > > both > > > > >verbal and written instructions for writing > > papers > > > > and > > > > >other assignments. > > > > > > > > > >For example, I have my research students turn > > in > > > > rough > > > > >drafts of their APA papers to me for my review > > and > > > > >editing and I have REPEATEDLY told them that > > their > > > > >margin sizes for APA are incorrect, all spacing > > > > >between text need to be double-spaced, etc. AND > > > > they > > > > >continue to FAIL to follow these most simple > > > > >instructions. I continue to get papers with > > triple > > > > >spacing and 2 inch margins......... > > > > > > > > > >Is this student apathy? Is this being careless? > > Is > > > > >this reactance? Is this attention problems?? Is > > > > this > > > > >what?????????? > > > > > > > > > >Please share your thoughts with me and help > > shed > > > > some > > > > >light on this matter that I know is not only my > > > > issue > > > > >of concern when students continue to fail to > > follow > > > > >simple instructions both verbally and in > > written > > > > form. > > > > > > > > > >Oh boy..... > > > > >Payam Heidary, M.A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > > > > >Do You Yahoo!? > > > > >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > > > >http://personals.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > > >You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > ====================================================== > > > > Charlotte F. Manly, Ph.D. | > > Psychological & Brain > > > > Sciences > > > > Assistant Professor | 317 Life > > Sciences Bldg > > > > ph: (502) 852-8162 | > > University of Louisville > > > > fax: (502) 852-8904 | Louisville, KY > > 40292 > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/psychology/ > > > > http://www.louisville.edu/~cfmanl01 > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > > > > > --- > > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find a job, post your resume. > http://careers.yahoo.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************** Don Allen email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dept. of Psychology voice: (604)-323-5871 Langara College fax: (604)-323-5555 100 W. 49th Ave. Vancouver, B.C. 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