Thanks for the follow-up points Don. You have made some good points and I agree with many of the additional points you raised. I stress the importance of BOTH content and format of papers. I don't think we should ignore format because content is more important. They are both important and have to both be stress to our students.
Payam --- Don Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Payam Heidary wrote: > > Payam- > > I currently teach (and have taught) students to > write in APA style for > about 30 years. In addition, I have published in > several APA journals. I > am well aware of APA (5) style as currently > dictated. I am also familiar > with APA 4, APA 3, ... well, I don't want to go > there because it would > just make me feel old. While I am aware of the APA > rules regarding trivia > (e.g. margins, font size, spacing, etc.) I am also > aware of the more > important aspects of scientific writing: Clarity, > Concision and > Precision. When I teach my students APA style I > tend to worry less about > the ephemera like margins & focus more on Clarity of > expression, Concise > style & Precise recording of events. I feel that a > clear, concise and > precise paper with improper margins beats an > unclear, inconcise and > imprecise paper with proper margins any day. > > You are free to differ. > > Please remember when you teach your students that > the APA does not publish > RULES. They publish guidelines. Please also note > that these guidelines > change with each iteration of the APA manual. They > are not tablets in > stone sent from above but attempts by committees to > help harried editors > in their thankless task of publishing the volumes of > work spewing from the > research mills. > > You state, in part, "The students have the book and > I repeat what is in > the book to them as well. So why is there a need to > provide or do anything > else?" I could, as well, ask if the students have > the book why do you > feel it is necessary to repeat what is in the book? > Can't your students > read? The answer is, I think, that our role as > faculty goes far beyond > teaching students, "what is in the book." Part of > our role is teaching > them WHY it is in the book. Another part of our role > is getting them to > QUESTION why it is in the book. But I think that > the greatest part of our > role is to share with them the joy & wonder of this > science so that they > WANT to read the book. > > I don't spoon feed my students. My course is usually > referred to as either > "Boot Camp" or "The Course From Hell". Yet, > strangely, it is fully > enrolled every semester & I always have a waiting > list. > > I suggested that you provide students with a > checklist because it will > 1. underscore your desire that they produce their > assignments in > compliance with the current APA guidelines and 2. > allow you more time to > deal with the more important aspects of scientific > writing. > > I will also suggest that you may gain some benefit > from examining your > teaching style. A more Authoritative, rather than an > Authoritarian style > (ALA Baumrind) may produce the results that you are > looking for. > > All the best, > > -Don. > > > > > Don, > > > > Let me ask you a question. Do you teach or have > you > > taught any class where you have to teach students > to > > write APA style papers? My assumption is that you > have > > not based on your response. If you have you would > know > > that margin sizes and spaces between text are all > APA > > RULES of writing papers and not mine. These are > APA > > "trivial events" that I have to teach and make > sure > > that students follow. You would also know that > inside > > the APA manual there is specific information on > format > > and structure including margin sizes, spacing, > etc. > > These are critical aspects of APA style and are > not my > > critical wants! The students have the book and I > > repeat what is in the book to them as well. So why > is > > there a need to provide or do anything else? You > still > > suggest to provide a checklist of some sort? Why > not > > just say to also write the paper for them? Our job > is > > to teach students how to hold their spoons > straight so > > they can feed themselves and not to actually put > the > > spoon in their mouth and feed them like little > > children. These are adults. These are college > > students. They should follow instructions > > appropriately especially when you give them > several > > chances and opportunities and they still fail to > > follow the most basic and simple instructions. > > > > Payam > > > > > > > > > > --- Don Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Payam- > > > > > > I thinks what a number of people have tried to > tell > > > you is that you may want > > > to focus on your own behaviour rather than that > of > > > your students. When you > > > say things like, "...especially when you have > told > > > them a zillion times!!" I > > > am left with the impression that you are > > > over-reacting to trivial events. If > > > margin size & spacing are so critically > important to > > > you then have you > > > considered providing students with a checklist > to be > > > attached to every paper? > > > On this list you could enumerate all of the > items > > > that bother you and insist > > > that students turn in their papers with the > > > checklist as a cover page. This > > > will help students focus on what you think are > > > important issues. Of course, > > > this will not work with every student. Some > truly > > > are apathetic. However, a > > > lot of students are just having difficulty > > > distinguishing between signal & > > > noise. Maybe they were so focused on the > content > > > that they neglected the > > > form. Since merely repeating your instructions > has > > > proven to be ineffective > > > (after all, you've told them "a zillion times') > > > maybe you should consider > > > another technique. > > > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > > > -Don. > > > > > > Payam Heidary wrote: > > > > > > > I don't expect rough drafts to be "letter > > > perfect." > > > > When did I say that? Did I say that? NO. > > > > What I expect is for students to follow the > most > > > > simple instructions such as margin size and > > > spacing > > > > especially when you have told them a zillion > > > times!! > > > > > > > > Payam > > > > > > > > --- Charlotte Manly > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Is this the attitude you routinely project > in > > > the > > > > > classroom? It sounds like you think your > > > students > > > > > are complete idiots and incapable of > > > improvement. > > > > > Even if they lack much knowledge and skill, > it > > > can't > > > > > help your teaching to imply that they are > > > idiots. > > > > > > > > > > And why do you expect rough drafts to be > > > > > letter-perfect? You haven't mentioned how > the > > > final > > > > > drafts turn out. As long as the rough draft > is > > > > > legible and the final draft follows APA > > > guidelines, > > > > > how important is it if the rough draft > follows > > > those > > > > > guidelines? Is the point of a rough draft > with > > > > > feedback to improve content, or to see how > well > > > > > students can write in APA style? You also > > > haven't > > > > > mentioned how you handle grading of rough > and > > > final > > > > > drafts, but from recent discussions on this > > > list, > > > > > those reward contingencies are important in > > > shaping > > > > > student behavior. > > > > > > > > > > Charlotte > > > > > > > > > > >I think most of you agree with me now that > > > adjuncts > > > > > >are terribly EXPLOITED and poorly paid in > > > > > comparison > > > > > >to their full-time counterparts. Anyone who > > > > > disagrees > > > > > >is attempting to distort reality. > > > > > > > > > > > >Now to the next topic.... > > > > > > > > > > > >Let me hear what you other professors have > to > > > say > > > > > >about why students REPEATEDLY fail to > follow > > > both > > > > > >verbal and written instructions for writing > > > papers > > > > > and > > > > > >other assignments. > > > > > > > > > > > >For example, I have my research students > turn > > > in > > > > > rough > > > > > >drafts of their APA papers to me for my > review > > > and > > > > > >editing and I have REPEATEDLY told them > that > > > their > > > > > >margin sizes for APA are incorrect, all > spacing > > > > > >between text need to be double-spaced, etc. > AND > > > > > they > > > > > >continue to FAIL to follow these most > simple > > > > > >instructions. I continue to get papers with > > > triple > > > > > >spacing and 2 inch margins......... > > > > > > > > > > > >Is this student apathy? Is this being > careless? > > > Is > > > > > >this reactance? Is this attention > problems?? Is > > > > > this > > > > > >what?????????? > > > > > > > > > > > >Please share your thoughts with me and help > > > shed > > > > > some > > > > > >light on this matter that I know is not > only my > > > > > issue > > > > > >of concern when students continue to fail > to > > > follow > > > > > >simple instructions both verbally and in > > > written > > > > > form. > > > > > > > > > > > >Oh boy..... > > > > > >Payam Heidary, M.A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > > > > > >Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > >Make a great connection at Yahoo! > Personals. > > > > > >http://personals.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > > > >You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ====================================================== > > > > > Charlotte F. Manly, Ph.D. | > > > Psychological & Brain > > > > > Sciences > > > > > Assistant Professor | 317 Life > > > Sciences Bldg > > > > > ph: (502) 852-8162 | > > > University of Louisville > > > > > fax: (502) 852-8904 | Louisville, > KY > > > 40292 > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/psychology/ > > > > > http://www.louisville.edu/~cfmanl01 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > --- > > > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > --- > > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Find a job, post your resume. > > http://careers.yahoo.com > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > ******************************************************************** > Don Allen email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dept. of Psychology voice: (604)-323-5871 > Langara College fax: (604)-323-5555 > 100 W. 49th Ave. > Vancouver, B.C. > Canada, V5Y 2Z6 > ******************************************************************** > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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