In response to Nancy Melucci’s writing: > [..] I think that in the same way that our nation is > guilty of certain bad deeds that were not forgotten but that only > recently have come to light in the history books (such as the > slaughter of native american peoples), families can decide not > to discuss some of the darker aspects of their own histories. No > one forgets what happened, of course, but it can seem like > it. If we don't talk about it, we don't think about it. Not forgotten, > more like ignored. A family can encourage a child not to dwell on > things, even heinous things. So, later when a therapist asks about it, > permission to talk about these things can be powerful, perhaps even > like experiencing the trauma a second time […], I referred to the comparison between the child/family situation and population/nation situation as an analogy. Nancy responded: “It's not an analogy.” To my mind such a comparison is an analogy, but I’m happy to use the word ‘comparison’ here. It doesn’t affect the point I was making. That point was that the above passage seems to take as given that recovered memories of the kind we have been discussing (generally of sexual abuse recovered in the course of psychotherapy) are authentic, even if not entirely accurate. Nancy writes:
“This is not what was implied and I am not even sure where you got this from. It's your own interpretation of what I said.” The reason I wrote that the paragraph in question *seems* to presume that memories (and specifically child *sexual abuse* ‘memories’) recovered in the course of therapy are genuine was that virtually the whole discussion under the thread “Recovered memories” has been about the authenticity or otherwise of memories recovered in therapy. So when Nancy wrote of a family encouraging a child not to dwell on things, even heinous things, that had happened, I interpreted it the context of the ‘recovered memories’ issue. (People who reject the notion that such memories recovered in therapy may be false sometimes argue that the family has coerced the child to forget what had happened to her, but the memory resurfaces when triggered in adulthood.) It seems that I misinterpreted the point Nancy was making, for which I apologise. Also, in response to Nancy’s writing: > I think that in the same way that our nation is > guilty of certain bad deeds that were not forgotten but that only > recently have come to light in the history books (such as the > slaughter of native american peoples), families can decide not to > discuss some of the darker aspects of their own histories. No one > forgets what happened, of course, but it can seem like > it. If we don't talk about it, we don't think about it. Not forgotten, > more like ignored […], I argued that if these shameful events “have only recently come to light in the history books” [as is often the case with such events], then it cannot be the case that people in general have chosen not to talk about, since the information (having only recently come to light in history books) was not available. Nancy responded: “[This is] Also your own interpretation of my statement.” I’m sorry if this was a misreading of Nancy’s comments, though I think the logic of my response is valid, and I was not intending to be pedantic. I think it is frequently the case that the way history has been told to nations’ children (and I mean virtually all nations) has been a version that plays down the culpability of the nation in question, so that the failure to discuss shameful deeds in the past has been more down to ignorance about the events in question than a deliberate decision by the general population not to talk about it. So, to my mind, it is not a case of “no one forgets what happened”; the way history has historically been taught to children is such that they didn’t know most of the unpleasant things done by their own nation in the first place. None of this is to say that a population’s attitude to shameful *contemporary* (or near-contemporary) events does not frequently follow the pattern described by Nancy. Allen Esterson ----------- Selected messages “RE Recovered memories” Dave Lieberman wrote: > Stephen Black had a TIPS email a few weeks ago in which he listed myths > that many students believe, one of which is that children can repress the > memory of having been sexually abused, only for this memory to resurface > for many years. > [….] ---------------- Joyce wrote: > To David, Christopher, Paul, and others: > > What if both explanations could be right-depending on the circumstances? > How many of you recall more than just a few experiences prior to the age > of five? > What about experiences prior to age 7 or 10? Many people > remember almost nothing. Why? Could this be due to repression of > traumatic experiences? > > On the other hand, if a patient completely trusts their psychologist, > is it possible for the psychologist to "lead the witness" so to speak - > to implant > false memories based on the psychologist's guesses (or > projections)? > > Do any of you have any *direct* experience in this area? --------------------- Christopher Green wrote: >> To David, Christopher, Paul, and others: >> >>What if both explanations could be right - depending on the >>circumstances? >>How many of you recall more than just a few experiences prior to the age >>of five? What about experiences prior to age 7 or 10? Many people >>remember almost nothing. Why? > Because the brain is not fully developed. Infantile amnesia hasn't been a > mystery for decades now. > [….] >>On the other hand, if a patient completely trusts their psychologist, is >>it >> possible for the psychologist to "lead the witness" so to speak - >>to implant false memories based on the psychologist's guesses (or >>projections)? > All the more so if they *completely* trust their psychologist. ----------- Nancy Melucci wrote: > In a message dated 9/13/2003 7:20:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >> On the other hand, if a patient completely trusts their psychologist, >> is possible for the psychologist to "lead the witness" so to speak - >> to implant false memories based on the psychologist's guesses (or >> projections)? >> >> Do any of you have any *direct* experience in this area? > Or based on media representations...or dozens of other sources of > contamination. Yes I do have direct experience. I have been a practicing > clinical > psychologist. I maintain a license but I do not currently practice. > > I think something else might happen...this is just a pet hypothesis but > I will share it with you all. I think that in the same way that our > nation is guilty of certain bad deeds that were not forgotten but that > only recently have come to light in the history books (such as the > slaughter of native american peoples), families can decide not to > discuss some of the darker aspects of their own histories. No one > forgets what happened, of course, but it can seem like it. If we don't > talk about it, we don't think about it. Not forgotten, more like > ignored. A family can encourage a child not to dwell on things, even > heinous things. So, later when a therapist asks about it, permission > to talk about these things can be powerful, perhaps even like > experiencing the trauma a second time. I would view this as a social > process (the social world interacting with the cognitive) but I do not > believe it is an unconscious force (i.e.repression.) The danger of > distortion is always present, of course, because memory, all > kinds of memory, is so darn unreliable. ---------------- Allen Esterson wrote: > I’m not very happy with this analogy, for two reasons. One is that the > paragraph immediately above seems to take as given that recovered > memories (and I’m talking about those of the kind that usually occur > in the curse [sic! – A.E.] of some kind of psychotherapy, and usually > involve childhood sexual abuse) are *generally* authentic, even if > not entirely accurate > The second reason is that populations of countries with shameful > “past deeds” that have not been in history books until recently do not > “decide not to discuss some of darker aspects of their own histories”; > they don’t even know they occurred! -------------- Nancy Melucci wrote: > Allen Esterson writes: >> I’m not very happy with this analogy, for two reasons. One is that the >> paragraph immediately above seems to take as given that recovered >> memories (and I’m talking about those of the kind that usually occur >> in the curse of some kind of psychotherapy, and usually >> involve childhood sexual abuse) are *generally* authentic, even if >> not entirely accurate > It's not an analogy. This is not what was implied and I am not even > sure where you got this from. It's your own interpretation of what I > said. I don't buy repression, I don't think it exists. I think that the > brain/mind responds to the interpersonal world, to society. How we > think and what we think about is influenced by others. > It depends on the case. I am fairly sure that many events recovered > in therapy are not true events but prompted by therapist's cues. I am > also sure that sometimes people talk about things in therapy that they > never had permission to discuss before and that is very powerful and > sometimes therapeutic. At that point, what they remember of course > is to a certain extent incorrect because all memories are somewhat > incorrect in content even if the event being recalled did take place. >>"The second reason is that populations of countries with shameful >> past deeds that have not been in history books until recently do not >> decide not to discuss some of darker aspects of their own histories >> they don’t even know they occurred!" > Also your own interpretation of my statement. I am sure that many > Americans were aware of reservations, war on Native Americans, > various atrocities such as Wounded Knee. They simply did not > recognize it for what it was. Same thing with the Holocaust. Some > ordinary German citizens were perhaps in the dark, but most knew > about at least some of what was going on. For many reasons, no one > spoke up and no one acknowledged it. 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