Jean-Marc- I think wether it should be an aim of the community depends on which community you are speaking of. If you are talking about billing to third party, I don't really have a clue as I'm not a clinician. If you are speaking of the legal ramifications I'm not a lawyer but I think I remember that only "standard scientific practice" qualifies as evidence- so in court the standard practice would be the APA and DSM guidelines as the final arbiter. If you are talking about research then I think it not unexpected that there would be disagreement even with the most well know of authors. Surely that's why it is research. :) Overall, it isn't at all surprizing that such disagreements accrue at any level, imho. What you state isn't really controversial in some sense but it isn't that controversial either that some want to stick to a standardized language and retreat to the DSM classifications. For example, similar disagreement exists among those in the field on manic-depressive disorder vs bipolar as a proper diagnosis. Even Jamison still pushes for manic-depressive disorder as the proper classification. My ability to tolerate ambiguity completely agrees with you that in informal discussions like tips and even in the research literature there is room for such disagreement or expansions of definitions. :) Tim
-----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marc Perreault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 2/24/2005 2:33 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Cc: Subject: Re: Psychopathy and frustration No argument there... But isn't this a problem in itself? If Hare, who's been developing the construct of psychopathy, has always made an effort to separate the two, shouldn't the community aim at doing so as well? Another interesting fact is that it would appear that ASPD is of little help in terms of predictions of recidivism, whereas a PCL score is helpul, especially for violent offenders. To top it off, the DSM is critisized for the way it comes up with it's classifications. So, if on top of this, we allow clinicians to come up with their own categories, where does it leave us? I'm not a very strong supporter of the DSM, but at least, it brings about a minimum of consistency (well, one would hope anyhow). Just some food for thought... JM Scott Lilienfeld wrote: > Jean: Actually, many researchers and clinicians do consider > psychopathy to be a personality disorder, even though it's not > technically a DSM personality disorder. But I agree that the use of > this term could invite confusion among some readers, especially those > accustomed (as many of us) to thinking in DSM terms. ....Scott > > Jean-Marc Perreault wrote: > >> Very interestingly, on Hare's book /Without conscience,/ (1993), the >> confusion between ASPD and psychopathy is perpetuated. On the back >> cover, you can read, "Individuals with this *personality disorder* >> are fully aware of the consequences of their actions and know the >> difference between right and wrong, yet they are terrifyingly >> self-centered, remorseless, and unable to care about the feelings of >> others". >> >> Hum... Confusing to see this on Hare's book! I've never published a >> book, so I don't know if he had a chance to apporve the back cover. I >> certainly would imagine he did not write it himself... >> >> JM >> >> >> >> Scott Lilienfeld wrote: >> >>> Hi Bill et al.: Actually, although the DSM-IV states (in its >>> accompanying text) that psychopathy and ASPD are isomorphic >>> constructs, most measures of these two constructs are only >>> moderately (r=.5 or so) intercorrelated. Also, about 75-80% of >>> incarcerated criminals meet diagnostic criteria for ASPD, whereas >>> only about 20-25% meet criteria for psychopathy according to Bob >>> Hare's Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R). The term "sociopathy," >>> an old term introduced by Patridge in 1930, has been used >>> inconsistently to refer to (a) psychopathy, (b) something akin to >>> ASPD, with an associated lengthy history of antisocial/criminal >>> behavior (ala the St. Louis group of Robins and Guze), or (c) >>> antisocial behavior that is largely environmental in origin (closer >>> to Patridge's original meaning and resurrrected recently by David >>> Lykken). >>> >>> ....Scott >>> >>> Goss, Bill wrote: >>> >>>> I thought that both of these terms were historical labels having been >>>> replaced by antisocial personality disorder? Bill Goss >>>> College of the Rockies >>>> Cranbrook, B.C. >>>> Ph: 250 489-2751 Ext. 324 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rick Adams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 23, >>>> 2005 9:05 PM >>>> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences >>>> Subject: RE: Psychopathy and frustration >>>> >>>> Sure, >>>> >>>> A psychopath meets the clinical standards set by Hervey Cleckley which >>>> include such concepts as: lack of affect, lack of guilt or remorse, >>>> pathological lying behaviors (may be controlled or not), superficial >>>> charm, etc. In other words, a true psychopath does not feel guilt, >>>> shame, >>>> or experience true empathy (he--most are male--can sympathize with >>>> someone, but he can't empathize with him or her). In addition, most >>>> have >>>> above average IQs, tend to have very poor work histories (there are >>>> exceptions--particularly among professionals), are risk takers, and >>>> have >>>> a >>>> need for above average levels of stimulation and nearly all are >>>> "logic" >>>> driven, viewing relationships as being permanent only so long as they >>>> meet >>>> their needs (actually, from a married point of view, many women are >>>> very >>>> comfortable with that--so long as they meet their end of the bargain >>>> they >>>> can be certain that their partner will meet his and not become >>>> "infatuated" with someone new). Few psychopaths are capable of feeling >>>> romantic love, although most can feel "companionable" love and concern >>>> for >>>> someone else PROVIDED it benefits them to do so. The infamous "Great >>>> Pretender" Ferdinand DeMara was a classic psychopath, but if you >>>> imagine >>>> Mr. Spock from Star Trek you have the perfect model of a psychopath. >>>> A sociopath, on the other hand is a "psychopath gone bad." Normally >>>> somewhat lower in IQ than the average psychopath (although not always) >>>> he >>>> has adapted a life model of violating the standards of society (a >>>> psychopath will violate some standards--many, for example, use >>>> recreational drugs, etc.--but not the major ones). These are the >>>> individuals who end up in the criminal justice system and are among >>>> the >>>> most violent of offenders. In this group, you can think in terms of >>>> Ted >>>> Bundy, Gary Gilmore, and Joseph Stalin (who, of course, also displayed >>>> some characteristics of paranoia--but since he really DID have enemies >>>> who >>>> wanted to kill him, that may not be unreasonable). Take the Antisocial >>>> Personality Disorder up one peg and you have the sociopath. >>>> >>>> Hope that helps a bit. >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Rick Adams. >>>> Capella University >>>> Grand Canyon University >>>> Jackson Community College >>>> >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> "... and the only measure of your worth and your deeds will be the >>>> love >>>> you leave behind when you're gone." -Fred Small, J.D., "Everything >>>> Possible" >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: DeVolder Carol L [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: >>>> Wednesday, February 23, 2005 10:48 PM >>>> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences >>>> Subject: RE: Psychopathy and frustration >>>> >>>> As a non-clinician, can you explain to me the difference between >>>> psychopath and sociopath? >>>> >>>> Carol >>>> >>>> Carol L. DeVolder, Ph.D. >>>> Associate Professor of Psychology >>>> St. Ambrose University >>>> 518 West Locust Street >>>> Davenport, Iowa 52803 >>>> >>>> Phone: 563-333-6482 >>>> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> web: http://web.sau.edu/psychology/psychfaculty/cdevolder.htm >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: Rick Adams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Sent: Wed 2/23/2005 8:14 PM >>>> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences >>>> Subject: RE: Psychopathy and frustration >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Actually, why shouldn't we seem like psychopaths? The percentage of >>>> psychologists who are psychopaths is higher than the national average >>>> (note that I'm NOT using the term "sociopath" which is not the same >>>> thing). >>>> >>>> For the record, does anyone care to take a guess at which >>>> profession has >>>> the highest percentage of psychopaths (according to Cleckley's >>>> standards, >>>> not Hare's)? I'll post the answer Sunday after everyone who wants >>>> to do >>>> so >>>> has had a chance to give it a try. >>>> >>>> I'm willing to bet that most people won't get the right profession (be >>>> specific, by the way) and many of those who read the answer will >>>> have to >>>> get on the Internet and confirm it before they believe it! >>>> >>>> If you're serious gluttons for punishment, try for numbers two and >>>> three >>>> as well! >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Rick Adams. >>>> Capella University >>>> Grand Canyon University >>>> Jackson Community College >>>> >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> "... and the only measure of your worth and your deeds will be the >>>> love >>>> you leave behind when you're gone." >>>> -Fred Small, J.D., "Everything Possible" >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Shearon, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:10 PM >>>> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences >>>> Subject: RE: Psychopathy and frustration >>>> >>>> Jean-Marc- Why are you asking us? Do we seem like psychopaths? :) I >>>> totally apologize for that - it was just wrong! (And God bless the >>>> pigmies >>>> in Africa, to quote Larry). :) Thanks for understanding my quirkiness! >>>> Just got through grading at 2am this morning. Tim >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Jean-Marc Perreault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Sent: Wed 2/23/2005 2:32 PM >>>> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences >>>> Cc: Subject: Psychopathy and frustration >>>> As I mentioned in my last post, I've been studying psychopathy lately >>>> for >>>> one of my courses. A question came up that neither my criminologist >>>> colleague nor I could answer. >>>> >>>> Do psychopaths experience frustration, and if so, could we infer that >>>> that >>>> frustration increases their odds of committing an aggression? >>>> >>>> Cheers! >>>> >>>> JM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David Campbell wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> "B" I'd hate to have the responsibility as a teacher to make this >>>>> decision. I don't want to have to discriminate between bonafide >>>>> disabilities and student manipulation to avoid difficult >>>>> requirements. >>>>> --Dave >>>>> >>>>> Frigo, Lenore wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Just a quick survey question and I'll be happy for as many >>>>>> back-channel answers as I can get. >>>>>> >>>>>> At your college/university, when a student has a disability for >>>>>> which >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> they need accommodation, is this determination made by >>>>>> >>>>>> a) individual instructors >>>>>> b) a centralized unit (such as disabled student services) >>>>>> c) either, depending on the student's preference >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Lenore Frigo >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To >>>>>> unsubscribe send a blank email to >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To >>>> unsubscribe send a blank email to >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To >>>> unsubscribe send a blank email to >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Scott O. Lilienfeld, Ph.D. >>> Associate Professor Department of Psychology, Room 206 Emory University >>> 532 N. Kilgo Circle Atlanta, Georgia 30322 >>> >>> (404) 727-1125 (phone) >>> (404) 727-0372 (FAX) >>> >>> Home Page: http://www.emory.edu/PSYCH/Faculty/lilienfeld.html >>> >>> The Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice: >>> >>> www.srmhp.org >>> >>> >>> The Master in the Art of Living makes little distinction between his >>> work and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, >>> his education and his recreation, his love and his intellectual >>> passions. He hardly knows which is which. He simply pursues his >>> vision of excellence in whatever he does, leaving others to decide >>> whether he is working or playing. To him – he is always doing both. >>> >>> - Zen Buddhist text (slightly modified) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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