Hi

There are at least several problems with Stephen's eminently sensible
suggestions below.

1.  The level of science education of school teachers.  I do not know
the current literature, but at least historically science students were
less likely to choose education as a profession and were more likely to
quit teaching early once they started.  A sophisticated examination of
creationism/id requires sophisticated science instructors, or at least
ones committed as much to science and education as to their religious
beliefs.

2.  The religious advocates of creationism/id have certainly not
demonstrated any marked sense of morality in the debates, including this
trial.  It appears highly likely that they will abuse any introduction
of creationism/id into the curriculum with unwanted (by scientists and
many others) negative consequences.  A recent article in the NY Times,
for example, points out that a Texas school board has chosen as a text
for bible classes one that advocates for creationism (and other aspects
of protestant fundamentalism).  Who really doubts that coverage of
religion in religion classes, social science classes, or whatever, will
be used as a license to promote beliefs about the natural world contrary
to those taught in science classes (e.g., young earth, the flood, ...)?

3.  Can public schools really withstand the kinds of conflicts that
have manifested themselves at the school governance level?  I am sure
that many students, parents, and even teachers would balk at the kinds
of criticism that creationism/id would come under if covered in an
objective way by competent teachers.  Although the courts were told
(wrongly I believe) in this recent case that science does not conflict
with religion, any attempt to cover both topics within the same course
(i.e., religion in science classes or science in religion classes) will
quickly reveal this belief as a myth.  Certainly the recent experience
trying (with disastrous results) to teach about creationism and other
mythologies in a university religious studies course should not lead us
to be sanguine about what would happen at lower levels of the
educational system.

For such reasons, I doubt that Stephen's suggestion is workable, at
least at the high school level.  And it might even be a challenge at the
university level, at least in Kansas and like states.

Take care
Jim

James M. Clark
Professor of Psychology
204-786-9757
204-774-4134 Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 22-Dec-05 2:01:22 AM >>>
On 20 Dec 2005 at 12:49, Scott Lilienfeld wrote:

> I'm of course pleased to hear about the judge's decision, although
some news 
> outlets, like CNN, are already describing it as "banning" ID theory
from 
> being  mentioned in biology classes (see www.cnn.com).  
<snip>
> Much as I feel strongly that ID theory should not be taught as an
equally 
> viable  alternative to Darwinian natural selection in biology
classes, I
 > would not want  biology teachers to be muzzled into not even
mentioning
>  or discussing it.  

I'd go further. I support the heresy (from the science camp standpoint)
that ID 
_should_ be taught in the classroom.  For two reasons:

1) Refusing to discuss ID in the classroom,  when ID has been presented
to many 
students elsewhere as a credible alternative to evolution, sends
exactly the 
wrong message about science. It says that science suppresses views it
disagrees 
with, rather than debating and refuting them with logic and evidence.
This is 
the way religion operates, not science. We want  students to understand
this 
distinction, and the best way to ensure that they do is to meet the ID

challenge head on.  To refuse to discuss ID suggests to students that
it 
represents a valid alternative which evolutionists are unable or afraid
to 
debate.

2)  To ignore ID in the classroom wastes a unique opportunity to
clarify for 
students the difference between a true scientific theory and a
religious 
belief, or between science and pseudoscience. Experts in the philosophy
of 
science and in evolution could provide model lessons for biology
teachers to 
apply in the classroom illustrating how evolution constitutes a valid 
scientific theory and ID does not. 

In particular, ID proponents argue for a Designer by attempting to find
flaws 
in the evidence for evolution. Judge John Jones made short work of this

illogical claim in his recent Dover school district judgement, pointing
out 
that whatevert the alleged deficiencies in evolutionary theory, they
provide no 
support for its religious alternative. Yet the objections raised by 
creationists do have a degree of plausibility which a non-expert would
have 
difficulty in refuting, and which seem persuasive to many. We can't
assume that 
if they don't hear about it in class, they won't hear about it
elsewhere.  For 
example, I'm sure that the now notorious _Of Pandas and People_ is
required 
reading in many homes.  The opportunity to examine the well-worn
criticisms of 
the creationists  and provide evidence against them should not be
missed. It 
will give students the knowledge to effectively refute such specious
arguments. 
It's important not only to tell students that evolution is a fact but
to 
provide evidence to support that claim. Otherwise, we're saying only,
"believe 
us, not them". 

For example, what would you say to refute or evaluate each of the
following 
claims  (taken from http://www.vuletic.com/hume/cefec/  except as
noted):

1: The perfection of structures like the human eye is proof of
creation.

2: "Irreducibly complex" things could not have evolved by small steps,
and 
evolutionists have not even tried to show that they have.

3: There is no explanation for how the bacterial flagellum could have
evolved.

4: Evolutionists cannot explain how feathers could have evolved.

5:The peppered moth does not demonstrate evolution because no
speciation occurs 
[or that the peppered moth example of evolution is a fraud--SB]

6: Mutations are always harmful.

7:: Chromosome numbers cannot change without producing harmful
effects.

8: There are plenty of mutations that cause birth defects, but none
that cause 
"birth improvements."

9: The rate of mutation is too small for mutation to serve as a source
of 
variation.

10:  Regardless of mutation rates, the rate of microevolution is too
low to 
account for the macroevolutionary change observed in the fossil
record.

11: Macroevolution remains unproved because no one has observed it. In
fact, 
macroevolution is in principle unobservable, so evolution is
unscientific.

12: No one has ever seen one species arise from another.

13: Natural selection is a tautology: the fittest survive, and those
who 
survive are the fittest.

14: If humans had evolved from apes, there would no longer be any apes
around.

15. Evolution is unfalsifiable, and therefore unscientific.
 
A few I've heard elsewhere (no source)

16. Gaps in the fossil record disprove evolution

17. Haeckel's drawings showing that "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" 
(an 
observation which supports evolution) are faked

18. The earth is much younger than is claimed by evolutionists

Speaking personally, without researching these criticisms I would be
hard 
pressed to answer them in a convincing manner. Classroom lessons
providing 
sound discussion and evidence bearing on such claims would provide an 
invaluable experience in how science operates, and give students the
means to 
refute them. 

So by all means let's discuss ID in the classroom. Let's tell  'em what
IDers 
say about evolution and then tell 'em why it's wrong.

Stephen
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen L. Black, Ph.D.          
Department of Psychology     
Bishop's University                e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Lennoxville, QC J1M 1Z7
Canada

Dept web page at http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy 
TIPS discussion list for psychology teachers at
http://faculty.frostburg.edu/psyc/southerly/tips/index.htm 
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