Someone mentioned on this thread recently that Kubler-Ross' motivation
for the Stages of Grief  (specifically that acceptance was valued as the
last stage) was the comfort of the institutions and nurses and doctors
who would just prefer not to have to deal with the anger and other
strong, aversive behaviors of dying people. After reading an interview
with her, I doubt that was the point. I think the actual foundation of
her ideas is clear from the following excerpt (especially the parts in
bold) although you may also want to read the entire very interesting
interview in OMEGA, Vol. 50(2) 83-101, 2004-2005 titled, You Cannot Die
Alone cconducted by Kenneth Kramer. I got a copy through a full-text
link in PsycINFO but that may be specifiic to the electronic
subscriptions owned by my university.

Suicide and Dr. Kevorkian
I take it that you feel that one of the reasons why you are here in this
life is to call people to wake up to this, that is, to let people know
that what's going on here is so superficial and of such secondary
importance, and that the real lesson in life is to learn about death.
No, the real purpose of life is spiritual evolution. That is the goal.
Death is one door through which you can do it. Dying is the easiest
door. Because if you do it with dying patients, especially dying
children, they're real teachers. They teach you everything nobody ever
teaches you in medical school, or in seminaries, or in churches, or
Sunday school. And if you listen to those patients, with all the
listening in the world, you don't have to go and get a guru, you have
your guru right here, in Huntington Beach, in Fresno, in Kalamazoo.
Anywhere you go, go and visit dying children. Befriend them, start
conversations with them, and they will teach you anything you want and
need to know. You don't have to go to India, or Sai Baba, or any of
these really big people, because you may not be able to afford it.
Nobody has to come miles and miles and miles to find the truth. You can
find the truth anywhere in the world. I may live in the Virginia
mountains, and I can find it there if I look. I have to look and then I
can find it. And then you hear about people fighting, like in Bosnia and
Herzegovina. The Muslims fight the Christians, and the Serbs fight the
other guys. There's nothing but fighting and jealousy and competition.
They have so much unfinished business. Kevorkian is a good example. He
goes around killing people and he feels like a big hero. He
doesn't know that what he is doing is totally wrong. I invited him to
come to one of my workshops to get in touch with why he is doing this.
Because I am absolutely sure he has some unfinished business. Probably
the death of his wife which he couldn't help. That's my presumption, I
don't know that for sure. I told him, I could heal him from that
unfinished business. Then he doesn't have to spend the rest of his life
killing people, which is a "No-No." And he said, "Yes," he would come.
And I was very excited. Then the next day I got the phone call that he
only comes if I agree to witness one of his killings. And I am sure he
would have misused that for PR. As an advertising gimmick. And I said I
can't do that, because I totally disagree. There are very few basic
Universal laws. "Thou shalt not kill" is one of them. And you don't go
around killing people, even if they are one month or two weeks before
their actual death. Because you cheat them out of the last lessons that
they have to learn in order to graduate. They are very unhappy
afterwards, when they see how close they came to real graduation, then
they have to come back and start over again. It will be a thousand times
more difficult.

So you would oppose what Dr. Jack Kevorkian is doing?
Totally-one hundred percent.

Because you feel that death is that final lesson?
Everybody is allowed to die, even if you die in a sudden, unexpected
way. Everybody is allowed to die when the time for graduation is right.
It means they have learned what they came to learn, and they have taught
what they learned, and they have taught what they have promised to
teach. Then you are allowed to die. It's your graduation. And you make a
quantum leap upwards in your spiritual evolution. If you kill somebody
months before there is one more lesson to learn, you have to start from
scratch. They will not be grateful.

So the same would apply to suicide then-say, if I take my own life then,
in a sense, I cheat myself.
That's not true of all suicides, you must know. Say you have a teenager
who is dreadfully depressed and kills himself, for no other reason than
because he is so depressed and there is no other way out. And he says,
"I am diagnosed manic-depressive." And they give him all sorts of pills
and anti-depressants. And they get worse, and they do not respond to
that kind of treatment. They need Lithium, any element that takes care
of that biochemical disorder. They will be evaluated like dying of
cancer, because they have this organic pathology that nobody diagnosed
and they will not have to pay the price for it. If the same aged
teenager commits suicide as revenge, because the boyfriend went out with
another girlfriend, and you really want to make your ex-girlfriend
guilty and feel miserable for the rest of her life, that she dared to
pick another boyfriend. If it's a revenge act, then they have to come
back and learn rejection. Then they also know after the transition what
could have been if they had accepted that with humility and acceptance,
what wonderful voice would be waiting for them, what fantastic other
friend they would have found. They would have lived happily ever after.
Then all the alternatives are ready for them, but it's too late. They do
have to come back to learn their lesson. You cannot return to the life
that you borrowed, or whatever you call it, with dirty hands, with a nag
that destroys your physical body, which is kind of a sacred shell. Then
you die of natural causes, you don't need it anymore. It is discarded
like a winter coat when spring comes. [Coughs].


Stages After Death
Let me ask you a little bit about your conception of what happens on the
other side of death. 

I have done research on that for 15 years. To me, it is a very simple
process. I have interviewed and talked to people from every conceivable
religion and religious background with a special emphasis on Aboriginal,
American Indians, Eskimos-all the old wise people who we call
"primitive" because we are so primitive. We are deep down envious of
them because they know so much-they do. All the human beings that I have
interviewed have a common denominator: they leave the physical body at
the moment of death. It's like a cocoon, then a butterfly comes out.
They lose their consciousness. Consciousness is dependent upon a
functioning brain. And you lose your consciousness and become a
vegetable-you're in a coma state. You are not alive, you have no
consciousness, you can't talk, you may have no blood pressure or
respiration, but you're not dead yet. Your butterfly is still connected
to the cocoon. And as long as that connection is intact, resuscitation
makes sense. But there is a point where that long cord is severed. 

 

Rick

Dr. Rick Froman

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 



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