I have only scanned these posts, so hope I am not repeating old information. Some data is out there ... they do not answer categorically the 'race' vs 'non-race' question, but better than no data at all ...
Basically, Jews from different countries are usually more similar to each other (using DNA markers) than they are to their non-Jewish neighbors (Hammer et al Jewish and middle eastern non-jewish populations share a common pool ... Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 97, 6769-74, 2000). Though they are very similar to non-Jewish middle eastern Arabs. Perhaps no surprise given the dual lines from Abraham+Sarah (Jewish) -> Isaac, and Abraham+Hagar (Egyptian) -> Ishmael. Further, DNA markers indicate the Falasha from Ethiopia have african (not Jewish) markers (and the Mormons are NOT the lost tribe genetically at least). However, the Lemba from South Africa ARE related, and have the same markers as the Cohanim (who supposedly have markers different from other Jews, consist with the historic Cohen priest role (Skorecki et al Y chromosomes of Jewish priests, Nature, 385, 32, 1997) And, to answer Michael S's previous question, yes there are Ethiopian Jews, though not genetically similar. Though the % of Ethiopian Jews is small (less than 10% I believe). And if I am permitted to put a plug in for Greece, early all of non-Muslim Ethiopians are Greek Orthodox (but I have NO idea about the genetics!) - they were Greek Orthodox before much of Europe was Christian apparently. I am not an expert on DNA or little else on this thread, except summaries on these references, so I make no claims for the quality of the work summarized .. ========================== John W. Kulig Professor of Psychology Plymouth State University Plymouth NH 03264 ========================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Carter" <marc.car...@bakeru.edu> To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" <tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu> Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:23:51 AM Subject: RE: [tips] Do Jews form a race? I haven't been reading all these posts closely (and in fact would love to see them off-list because they have little to do with the teaching of psychology), but can I just interject that that "race" is not a biological construct, but a categorical, social construct? It's not blood, it's not genetics. It's social and cultural. There's more genetic variability within a race than between races. It's a social construct. It has a reality (I think Hacking would concur with that), but it doesn't have to do with genetics. I think. m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor and Chair Department of Psychology College of Arts & Sciences Baker University -- > -----Original Message----- > From: Louis Schmier [mailto:lschm...@valdosta.edu] > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:12 AM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > Subject: RE: [tips] Do Jews form a race? > > "Jews in general?" "Conventional Jewish population?" Gosh, > that sounds like an distorting stereotype to me. You're not > talking about red hair; you're offering a red herring. > You've been reading too much of Wikipedia. Amazing how on > this list Wikipedia has been bashed as a legitimate sources > and here you go citing it. And, how I've been bashed for not > citing refereed scientific studies, and you go and cite > newspaper reports. > Nevertheless, I am confused. Who are you talking about? > You're not talking about black dyed red-haired converts to > Judaism; you're not talking about black dyed red-haired > Jewish converts to other religions; you're not talking about > the Lemba; you're not talking about the descendants of Hagar; > you're not talking about Joseph's offspring from two > Egyptians wives (Gen 41:50-2); you're not talking about > offspring of marriages between Jews and non-Jews; you're not > talking about Sephardim; you're not talking about Ethiopian > Jews; you're not talking about Yemeni Jews; you're not > talking about Baghdadi Jews; you're not talking about Iranian > Jews; you're not talking about German Jews; you're not > talking about the Jews of Kaifeng in China (whom I've met and > "don't look Jewish"); you're not talking about the Cochin > Jews or Bene Israel Jews of India; you're not even talking > about over the 97% of Ashkenazi Jews who don't have the > Tay-Sachs gene marker; you're not talking about Jews who > lived before the Tay-Sachs mutation occurred. And, if you > want to dwell on Tay-Sachs, I guess that makes Cajuns, French > Canadians, and Irish American Catholics either members of > your "Jewish race" or have "Jewish blood" flowing through > their veins since the incidence of Tay-Sachs in these > populations is nearly the same as in the > Ashkenazi Jews (and don't hand me the debunked "Jewish fur > trader hypothesis"). No, I > have no trouble with the obvious because it's obvious that > you're just talking about "Jews in General" and "conventional > Jewish population." > > Mike is right. Enough! > > Make it a good day. > > --Louis-- > > > Louis Schmier > http://www.therandomthoughts.com Department of History > http://www.therandomthoughts.edublogs.org > Valdosta State University > Valdosta, Georgia 31698 /\ /\ /\ /\ > (229-333-5947) /^\\/ \/ \ > /\/\__/\ \/\ > / > \/ \_ \/ / \/ /\/ \ /\ > //\/\/ > /\ \__/__/_/\_\ \_/__\ > /\"If you > want to climb mountains,\ /\ > _ / \ don't > practice on mole hills" - > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sbl...@ubishops.ca [mailto:sbl...@ubishops.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:40 PM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > Subject: [tips] Do Jews form a race? > > I knew I shouldn't have done it, and yet I did. Now I hear > myself screaming, "Stop, stop! Don't do it again. Get help > for your SPAA (Stupid Pointless Argument Addiction)! And yet > I persist. > > I'm shocked that Louis would stoop to the cheap and > disrespectful trick of invoking the Holocaust as a bullying > tactic to attempt to silence me. I'm sure the tactic has > worked well for him in the past. But not this time. What am > I supposed to do, compete with him in whose family suffered more? > > Louis sneered: > > > (1) So, tell me, does a convert to Judaism instantly undergo a > > miraculous genetic mutation and racial transformation > induced by the > > mystic waters of the mikvah? > > <snip> Here in our community, the rabbi is converting an entire > > African-American family to Judaism. Do something > > genetic with that! > > It was clear that I was talking about Jews in general, and > the existence of a small number of converts as a special case > does not refute the findings that I cited. These findings > show that people who self-identify as Jews or the children of > Jews tend to have certain genetic markers in common, and > therefore may reasonably be referred to as a race in the > biological sense. It seems patently obvious that this would > not apply to converts. > > As Louis has trouble with the obvious, let me try again. > Consider the analogy of having red hair, unquestionably a > hereditary disorder. Yet anyone afflicted with red hair can > cure themselves merely by walking into a drugstore. But the > existence of hair dye to create conversions to red hair does > not weaken our understanding of the genetic origin of hair > colour. It's still hereditary, even though on some occasions > it might not be. > > So it is with conversion and the concept of race applied to Jews. > As for Louis terming such ideas "bigoted, hateful tripe", it > is about as racist to say that Jews have an identifiable > biological heritage as it is to say the same thing about > people with red hair. Both accusations are equally silly. It > is not the fact of biological heritage that is racist but the > use of such information to favour one group over another. > Calling such ideas racist and building up a fine lather of > indignation over them are the kind of tactics employed when > one has nothing else to offer. > > Stephen > > (Relax, red-haired people. It's a joke. Some of my best > friends have red hair.) > > -------------------------------------------- > Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. > Professor of Psychology, Emeritus > Bishop's University > e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca > 2600 College St. > Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7 > Canada > -------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: lschm...@valdosta.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f > 1d2ef42440&n=T&l=tips&o=1827 > or send a blank email to > leave-1827-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42...@fsulist.fros > tburg.edu > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: marc.car...@bakeru.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13029.76c7c563b32ad9d8d09c72 > a2d17c90e1&n=T&l=tips&o=1841 > or send a blank email to > leave-1841-13029.76c7c563b32ad9d8d09c72a2d17c9...@fsulist.fros > tburg.edu > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by Baker University ("BU") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. 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