On Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 02:32:45 +0000, Louis E. Schmier wrote:
> Mike, jad e-mail problems here at the U.  This might be a tad late.  

No problem.

>I agree that there are "bad mistakes" and "good mistakes."  

See, I disagree.  I think there are "survivable mistakes" and
"nonsurvivable mistakes", that is, one makes a decision to engage 
in some foolish, high risk, dangerous activity while denying 
how fookish, risky, and dangerous that acitivity is. There will 
have to be one of two outcomes: you survive the dumb activity 
or you don't.

So, deciding to have unprotective sex with numerous partners
is likely to have a number of survivable consequences (e.g.,
catching the standard STIs, lifelong infection with herpes,
infectation with HIV that may progress to full-blown AIDS, etc.).
Nonsurvivable mistakes might include activities like seeing who 
can drink the most alcohol before passing out, shooting up
cocaine-heroin combinations, taking too many pills especially
new/unknown pills, driving while intoxicated and texting,
playing Russian roulette, and so on.

Louis, if you're saying to students mistakes are okay AND
you're only referring to low risk activities (like choice of classes
to take or whether one should not follow the directions for
writing a paper), I would ask what is the point?  Do you think
that making a mistake has positive consequences (maybe, but
only in rare circumstances).  

Two more points:

(1)  In the movie "Charlie Wilson's War" the character Gust Avrakotos
(Phillip Seymour Hoffman) tells Charlie Wilson (Tom Hanks)
a story about the Zen master.  The story concerns a boy who is 
first given a horse as a gift for his 14th birthday and everyone in the
village says "Oh, how wonderful!".  The Zen master says:

"We shall see."

The boy learns to ride the horse but one day the horse stumbles,
throws the boy who breaks his leg.  Everyone says "Oh, how 
terrible!".  The Zen master says:

"We shall see."

A few years later, a war breaks out and soldiers come to the village
to get recruits.  They don't take the boy because the accident left him
lame.  People said "Oh, how wonderful!".  The Zen master said:

"We shall see."

Gust's point was that the Zen master knew that, to quote another
philosopher, "the future's uncertain and the end is always near" and
trying to interpret whether an action is good or bad depends upon
both the immediate and long-term consequences which might not
be forseeable.  Gust was using this as a teaching point for Charlie
Wilson to warn him that arming the Mujahideen in Afghanistan with
stinger missiles to bring down the aircraft of the Soviet occupying
forces might have unintended consequences.  To which Charlie
Wilson said:

"We shall see."

Well, we have enough history now to see what effect Charlie Wilson's
"mistake" had.  Perhaps he was unafraid to make a mistake.  Perhaps
he should have been.

(2) Back in the 1970s/1980s some clinical psychologists tried to
make them different from medical doctors/psychiatrists by presenting
themselves as more "human" and more like their "clients" (not
"patients", that was part of the "medical model").  I'm not exactly
sure how/why this started but I think it represents a combination
of humanistic psychology and some of Albert Ellis' ideas about
psychotherapy (e.g., one shouldn't "should on him/herself" -- don't
tell yourself that you "should" be this or "should" be that or that
you "should" not avoid making mistakes because everyone does).
One story that I remember from back then was a clinical psychologist
professon addressing a class of grad students in clinical psychology.  
He was promoting this line that clinicians should appear to be more 
"human", accessible, and should not be afraid to make mistakes.  
One student responded to that last point, saying that a clinical 
psychologist who clearly made mistake undermined his confidence 
in that clinician. The teacher said that that was ridiculuous, clinical 
psychologists are just like everyone else and one should expect them 
to make mistakes.  The teacher then asked the class "would you think 
less of my competence if you saw me making mistakes?"  Most of the
class put their hands went up which caught the teacher by surprise.  
He responded: "Don't you see that that's an irrational position?  You 
will make mistakes because everyone makes mistakes -- you should 
not be afraid of making mistakes.  It is only natural".  Apparently,
most of the students didn't buy that or, they thought:

"We shall see."

>Second, the problem is that you cannot strive, or should not, strive  
>for that which you cannot achieve:  perfection.  

Why do you think that?  Is it because you have never achieved
perfection in anything that you have done?  Athletes who are "in the
zone" understand what perfection is.  Consider the following quote
that illustrates this point in the context of martial arts training and
competition:

|Self-expression in the martial arts occurs when your technique 
|comes automatically without thought, without pretense. It is the 
|point where mind and body come together to affect one action, 
|one motion. When you're in the zone, there is no thought process 
|involved in your performance. The action comes automatically 
|with flawless **perfection**. We can all remember a time in 
|our lives when we secured the victory or did something spectacular 
|while in the zone - that moment when time stopped, and all internal 
|dialogue ceased for that split second when we made the winning 
|move. For most of us, we fell into it by accident. We remember 
|what it felt like, but have no idea how to we did it or how to repeat it.
(Emphasis added)
http://www.squidoo.com/zen-and-the-martial-arts 

Or consider:

|A skier, for instance, may realize that his body is functioning 
|perfectly, and has infact somehow combined with equipment 
|and environment in such a way that all three seem improbably 
|united into one and the same.  A mountain biker with a technical 
|bent may all of a sudden realize she has thoughtlessly cleared 
|an obstacle previously never cleared.  A squash player may 
|come to the sudden realization that every shot he hits goes where 
|its intended, at the pace its intended to go, and furthermore, may 
|find himself always perfectly balanced and in place to return the 
|next shot.
|
|At this juncture he or she can do one of two things; retake the 
|venture and bring consciousness back into play, or remain outside 
|of one's self and let the body do what the body will while the mind 
|marvels. The first option is the option of the novice, the second is 
|the option of the adept. 
|
|To illustrate further:  my own good day on skis, Jay Peak, March 2005.  
|The sun is shining, the snow is soft and all is as should always be.  
|The skiing is not without effort, yet it is effortless. The body gasps for 
|breath, the legs collapse. The mind is conscious of it all, but the mind 
|controls none of it.  Turn follows turn.  Terrain is absorbed.  Thoughts 
|such as; "perhaps I will go there," or "let's pop off that stump," or 
|"there's an opening in the trees over there" are enough.  The body 
|somehow communicates with the skis which connect to the environment, 
|which then communicates back. I, as a skier, am in complete control 
|of where I go and what I do, but not in the slightest controlling how 
|it happens.  It just happens.  It becomes memorable.  It is as should be.
|
|"When the body is working, let it work," says the wise coach, "get 
|out of way."  Be it the unconscious, be it muscle memory, be it what 
|it may, atheletes describe it as being in the "zone." Herrigel in, Zen in 
|the Art of Archery, calls it the "artless art."
http://theopencritic.com/?p=16

I have no doubt that many people have achieved a state of perfect
action while doing some activity that requires skill such as running,
bike riding, bowling, even in teaching a well-known and deeply
understood topic, and so on.  No, Louis, perfection is  possible 
and ought to be sought.

>To think that you can will drive you both crazy and to despair.

Some people probably believe this and don't seek to achieve
perfection.  Think of what they are missing.

-Mike Palij
New York University
[email protected]

P.S.  Of course, all of the above is foma. ;-)
 
> Louis
> ________________________________________
> From: Mike Palij [[email protected]]
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 8:22 PM
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Cc: Mike Palij
> Subject: re: [tips] Random Thought: The Birthright To Make Mistakes, II
> 
> On Mon, 04 Apr 2011 02:58:21 -0700, Louis Schmier wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> Louis, just a couple of points on making mistakes:
> 
> (1) Depending upon the type of mistake one makes, if one makes
> enough of them, one will become a Darwin award winner.
> 
> (2) That great philosopher, Billy Joel, in his song "Say Goodbye
> to Hollywood" astutely noted:
> 
> |Say a word out of line
> |you'll find that your friends are gone
> |forever
> 
> In summary, I think it's important to keep in mind that we're not
> perfect but we should strive for perfection.  We cannot avoid
> making mistakes but we should avoid making truly stupid mistakes
> that puts at risk one's own like and the lives of others.  Remember
> the old joke from Saturday Night Live:
> 
> I think I want to die like my grandfather, quietly in my sleep.
> Not screaming in panic like the passengers on the plane he was
> flying.
> 
> Make it a sundae.


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