Hall was interested in Freud because they both had theories of childhood sexuality. Freud's existence gave an air of European legitimacy to his own controversial views. Making Freud's work available in English probably served that purpose. But he wasn't about to give up his own views and become a disciple of Freud. From the 1870s, Hall did everything he could to (maneuver around William James and) become recognized as the American "leader" of the new discipline. The lab, the journal, the university presidency, the faculty of European "stars," the national association, more journals, the giant tome on Adolescence. He was never going to be a mere follower of someone else. A few months before James died, he met Freud (then Hall's prize guest at Clark), and dismissed him as not very interesting (James wasn't above taunting Hall either).
Chris ....... Christopher D Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 [email protected] http://www.yorku.ca/christo > On Feb 11, 2015, at 9:03 PM, Ken Steele <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mike: > > Good finds. > > I spent an afternoon using archive.org to go through many of Hall's > publications (Adolescence, ...), including later editions, looking for > references to "Freud" and "Iceberg" without success. > > I thought that result to be odd given that GS Hall is the official translater > of "A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis" (1920). > > Chris Green: You have any insights about this disparity? Translating a book > is a lot of work. One would think that Hall would have used more of this work > in subsequent publications. > > Ken > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Kenneth M. Steele, Ph.D. [email protected] > Professor > Department of Psychology http://www.psych.appstate.edu > Appalachian State University > Boone, NC 28608 > USA > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> On 2/11/2015 9:47 AM, Mike Palij wrote: >>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:54:31 -0800, Christopher Green wrote: >>> [snip] >>> Can we find other psychoanalytic textbooks prior to 1953? >> >> Consider the following sources that either explicitly identify >> Hall and >> his description of the iceberg metaphor or describe the iceberg >> metaphor with mentioning Hall: >> >> (1) White, W. A. (1916). Mechanisms of character formation: >> an introduction to psychoanalysis. Macmillan. >> https://books.google.com/books?id=l_QNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA39&dq=iceberg+psychoanalysis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TH7aVID6K8TIsASe5oDgDg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=iceberg%20psychoanalysis&f=false >> >> >> Cites Hall (1898) AJP explicitly on p39-40. Uses 1/10-9/10 figure. >> >> (2) White, W. A. (1917). The principles of mental hygiene. >> Macmillan. >> http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=a74ZAAAAYAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&dq=White,+W.+A.+%281917%29.+The+principles+of+mental+hygiene.+Macmillan&ots=0T8iDnDrG6&sig=bUgNKbylRGaIRhJu8T0SBkzcU4g#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Cites Hall on page 37 but no source. Uses 1/10-9/10s. >> >> Quote: >> "It is the conflict between >> man's aspirations, his hopes, which he consciously >> entertains and which involve sacrifice in their attainment, >> and his historic past which drags him back >> and makes him desire the path of least resistance, >> which is selfish. Dr. Hall has illustrated this situation >> most happily by using the simile of the iceberg. >> The iceberg is nine-tenths submerged, and although >> it may appear that its motion is controlled by the >> forces which act upon its visible portions, yet we >> very frequently see that this is not so, that the great >> submerged nine-tenths often move it in direct opposition >> to winds and superficial currents. And so it >> is with the unconscious,-its motive power has always >> to be reckoned with and oftentimes it moves us >> to action in a direction quite contrary to that which >> we would consciously choose. The unconscious >> wishes are, therefore, always selfish." (Page 37-38) >> >> (3) Tridon, A. (1919). Psychoanalysis: Its history, theory, and >> practice. >> BW Huebsch. >> https://books.google.com/books?id=cDwFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA22&dq=iceberg+psychoanalysis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TH7aVID6K8TIsASe5oDgDg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=iceberg%20psychoanalysis&f=false >> >> >> Cites Hall on page 22 and his iceberg but provides no source or >> numbers. >> >> Quote: >> "The unconscious has been likened by Stanley Hall to >> an iceberg which proceeds on its voyage regardless of the >> direction of the wind. Most of the berg, however, is >> hidden under the surface and it is by powerful currents, >> invisible to the casual observer, and not by the wind, that >> the mass of floating ice is being driven irresistibly toward >> its goal." (Tridon, 1919, page 22) >> >> (4) NOTE: the following is not a textbook but a popular publication >> oriented toward musicians. See copy on books.google.com >> for popular presentation that quotes Hall: >> >> Music News, Volume 12, Issue 1, page 9 (newspaper) Column 1 >> Psychoanalysis and Music by Daniel Bonus & Edwin N Schoolman >> https://books.google.com/books?id=SndFAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA5-PA9&dq=iceberg+psychoanalysis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TH7aVID6K8TIsASe5oDgDg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=iceberg%20psychoanalysis&f=false >> >> >> Quote Hall from 1898 article (uses quotes) and use 1/10-9/10 >> numbers. >> >> (5) NOTE: Source is Psychological Bulletin. >> Southard, E. E. (1917). General reviews and summaries: General >> psychopathology. Psychological Bulletin, 14(6), 193. >> https://books.google.com/books?id=LOYLAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA247&dq=iceberg+psychoanalysis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TH7aVID6K8TIsASe5oDgDg&ved=0CFoQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=iceberg%20psychoanalysis&f=false >> >> >> Hall is mentioned (not cited) as is iceberg by 1/8 is visible. >> Page 247. >> >> (6) NOTE: Source is American Journal of Psychology. >> Barnes, H. E. (1919). Psychology and history: Some reasons for >> predicting >> their more active cooperation in the future. The American Journal >> of Psychology, >> 30, 337 >> https://books.google.com/books?id=T3m3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA360&dq=iceberg+psychoanalysis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TH7aVID6K8TIsASe5oDgDg&ved=0CF8Q6AEwDQ#v=onepage&q=iceberg%20psychoanalysis&f=false >> >> >> Iceberg is mentioned but Hall is not cited (no one is) and no >> numbers provided. >> >> So, even early in the 20th century, Hall's use of the iceberg was >> being >> quoted/cited in psychoanalytically oriented publications, >> psychological >> journals, and the popular press -- the above is just a sample, >> I'm sure that >> a more motivated researcher can find more instances from this time >> period. >> >> But.... >> >> But... >> >> But... >> >> Was G. Stanley Hall the originator of the iceberg metaphor? Or >> did he rely >> upon someone else for it? Consider the following reference: >> >> Hall, G. S. (1912). Founders of modern psychology. New York: >> Appleton. >> https://books.google.com/books?id=GB4RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA171&dq=Hall+%22Founders+of+modern+psychology%22+fechner+iceberg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YGfbVN2BD4qvyQTU_4DYCQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Hall%20%22Founders%20of%20modern%20psychology%22%20fechner%20iceberg&f=false >> >> >> This book is based on six lectures Hall gave at Columbia >> University in 1912 >> and it is based on Hall's life from 1870 to 1882, of which six >> were spent >> in Germany, and he provides intellectual biographies of six German >> psychologists who were influential in the development of a >> scientific >> psychology. Of most relevance is what Hall has to say about >> Fechner, >> part of which I quote below: >> >> "To Fechner the soul was not unlike an iceberg which >> is eight-ninths under the water's surface or threshold out >> in a denser and darker medium, but the tides of which, >> and not the wind above, determine its course, often in the >> teeth of a gale. He measured what was above this threshold >> only in order to draw inferences concerning what >> was below it, but here this figure limps, for when the top >> of the iceberg melts off the bottom of it does not go on >> and down into the pelagic depths, nor does it become a >> diffusive power. Jacobi said that the light kindled in his >> heart went out when he took it to his head. Not so with >> Fechner. He was a prose poet who supplemented science >> by myth as Plato did, though not in his manner. He >> strove to give the mansion which he built for the soul a >> basis upon the solid ground of scientific fact. He was far >> more interested in the post- than in the pre-existence of the >> soul, and hence cared little for the developmental history >> of the psyche, and never dreamed that psychogenesis >> might become a new and higher dispensation of Darwinism. >> Few men have ever been more independent or original >> or trusted their own intuitions more implicitly than >> he, or held their course more truly in the face of all contemporary >> tendencies and opinions. He revered facts >> like a true scientist, but revered the visions of his imagination >> like a true soldier of the Holy Ghost. He borrowed >> from all the great systems of his day and was held >> captive by none, and certainly he found a new answer to >> the old riddle of the Sphinx-if a man die, shall he live >> again? Only a threshold separates this life from the next, >> and the threshold that separates imperceptibility from perception >> and ideas not in consciousness from those in the >> fovea of attention is the same in kind as that which separates >> existence here from that beyond the grave. Indeed, >> there is no separation in either case, but only an unbroken >> continuum. There is no real death but something >> psychic wherever there is matter or energy. Matter is >> not extinct but only sleeping, dreaming mind. He would >> not lose sight of the whole in studying the parts, for each >> without the other becomes unknown." (Pages 171-172). >> >> So, did Hall come up with the iceberg metaphor or did he >> borrow it from Fechner? For one view on the transmission >> of ideas, see the following reference: >> >> Sarup, G. (1978). Historical antecedents of psychology: The >> recurrent issue of old wine in new bottles. American >> Psychologist, 33(5), 478. >> >> See especially Figure 1 on page 482. >> >> Busy, busy, busy. >> >> -Mike Palij >> New York University >> [email protected] >> -- > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62bd92&n=T&l=tips&o=42012 > or send a blank email to > leave-42012-430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62b...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=42014 or send a blank email to leave-42014-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
