I should probably finish by saying that, with reference to Freud, the iceberg metaphor attributed to him referred to the repressed form of unconsciousness being below the surface of the water. Likewise, for Hall there was an unconscious part of the mind that was below the level of consciousness and couldn'tbe easily retrieved. If I am correct about this, then Hall seems to have first used the iceberg metaphor in the way that it was later used to explain Freud's model of the mind (though not by Freud himself).
Herbert's and Fechner's models of the mind may also have used iceberg metaphors, though not in the same sense -- to refer to the same phenomena -- as that used by Hall and attributed to Freud. Best, Chris ----- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M6C 1G4 Canada [email protected] > On May 2, 2016, at 1:52 PM, Mike Palij <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Mon, 02 May 2016 08:16:58 -0700, Christopher Green wrote: >>> On May 2, 2016, at 10:39 AM, Mike Palij <[email protected]> wrote: >>> I think that the "Freudian Iceberg" falls into this category and >>> though this has been corrected to some degree, there still >>> is no single source that points out the problems with this >>> conception. >> >> I didn't write an article about the Freudian iceberg. However, >> in an article that I wrote about Stanley Hall's relationship with >> Ernst Haeckel last year, I did include a paragraph pointing out >> that the iceberg metaphor for the unconscious mind appeared >> (perhaps first) in an 1898 article by Hall. >> >> Hall's orignal article was: >> Hall, G. S. (1898). Some aspects of the early sense of self. >> American Journal of Psychology, 9, 351-395. >> >> My mention of it appeared in: >> Green, C. D. (2015). Hall's developmental theory and Haeckel's >> recapitulationism. European Journal of Developmental Psychology, >> 12, 656-665. > > There are several issues that have to be considered with respect to > the Freudian iceberg: > > (1) My own experience has been frustrating in tracking down 19th > century sources and, in some cases, either finding them inaccessible > or still under copyright (I am continually amazed at what is under > copyright protection even when it is over 100 years old and no longer > in print -- who holds the copyright?). My limitations in reading German > has also been a problem (AI's promise of language translation is > still just a dream). I have my own opinions about the Freudian > iceberg and I'll briefly review them here. > > (2) I think that there is consensus that Freud never explicitly used the > iceberg metaphor even though many of the people who have either > talked about Freud in the popular media (e.g., Freud's obituary in the > NY Times where the metaphor is presented and implicitly linked to > Freud) and in psychology textbooks (Ken Steele found images of > the overall "shape" of the mind in Freud sources dated 1923 and 1933, > neither of which are icebergs but the image from Healy et al 1930 is > closer to an iceberg, and Ruch & Zimbardo's Psychology and Life 7th > has the Healy image but in subsequent editions it becomes an > iceberg -- Zimbardo claims to have come up with the iceberg idea). > Subsequent intro psych textbooks "borrowed" this image/concept > and elaborated upon it while giving bogus references for sources). > Though intro psych textbooks have cut back using this image in > describing Freudian theory, it continues to pop up in unexpected > places (e.g., a recent psychology of language textbook). > > (3) I maintain that during the 19th century the "mind as an iceberg" > was a popular metaphor but I have difficulty is getting solid references > for this. This is partly due to the access and copyright issues mentioned > earlier. > > (4) Outside of psychology (and even in psychology) there is the view > that Freud developed the theoretical construct of the unconscious but > in point of fact the unconscious had been discussed and argued about > long before Freud showed up. Indeed, as we shall see, Freud was > influenced by these discussions and borrowed from them. G. Stanley > Hall in his 1912 "Founders of Modern Psychology" describes how > Fechner's conception of the mind-soul (since he believed in the mind > as an extension of the soul) was based on the iceberg metaphor. > Quoting Hall: > > |To Fechner the soul was not unlike an iceberg which > |is eight-ninths under the water's surface or threshold out > |in a denser and darker medium, but the tides of which, > |and not the wind above, determine its course, often in the > |teeth of a gale. He measured what was above this threshold > |only in order to draw inferences concerning what > |was below it, but here this figure limps, for when the top > |of the iceberg melts off the bottom of it does not go on > |and down into the pelagic depths, nor does it become a > |diffusive power.(page 171). > > I do not know where Hall got the idea that Fechner's model > of mind-soul was a metaphorical iceberg (he provides no > sources) and since Freud was familiar with Fechner's work, > it is not surprising it might be implicit in his work though he > preferred other metaphors. Radman Zdravko in his 1997 > "Metaphors of Mind" cites Freud's use of a three-story house > as representing the id, ego, and superego (see his page 138). > Zdravko however draws Freud's lineage further back than > Fechner which I expand upon next. > > (5) One source that should be read for a larger historical > background on Freud's intellectual lineage is the following: > > Sarup, G. (1978). Historical antecedents of psychology: > The recurrent issue of old wine in new bottles. American > Psychologist, 33(5), 478-485 > > As I have mentioned in the past, Johann Friedrich Herbart > (for some basic background on Herbart, see the Wiki entry: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Friedrich_Herbart ) > Sarup argues for Herbart as having had a major influence > on Fechner, Freud, and others -- his Figure 1 shows the > links between Herbart and Freud and how Herbart's influence > affected psychological theory. Herbart's conception of the > mind as an "apperceptive mass" -- a connected dynamic > network of ideas and perceptions -- only part of which is > available to consciousness and which concepts make it to > consciousness is dependent upon processes of inhibition > and excitation that operated to either raise a concept above > the threshold of consciousness or kept it below the threshold. > > Zdravko also identifies the iceberg metaphor with Herbart > and I think one can see how this metaphor follows the path > of Herbart to Fechner to Freud. The problem is clearly > establishing the links with the appropriate references. And > doing do has been a giant PITA. > > -Mike Palij > New York University > [email protected] > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62bd92&n=T&l=tips&o=48654 > or send a blank email to > leave-48654-430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62b...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=48656 or send a blank email to leave-48656-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
