On Sun, Oct 12, 2025 at 11:40:36AM -0700, Tim Bray wrote:
> That does it. Blocked. My time and attention is my most precious resource
> and I don’t want to unsubscribe.  -T

[FYI the above comes off as potentially an attempt to enforce conformity
 given your stature.  I hope that's just a misimpression on my part.  Of
 course DJB also uses his stature, but IMO not in this way.]

I've not followed all the vagaries of this case closely, but it does
seem to me that the WG and the IESG and the IETF ought to set some
policy, and that they can set policy, about things like "shall we allow
PQ-only suites?", and that this is important.  It should also be fair to
set no such policy.

In the absence of such a policy then support for an I-D that specifies
PQ-only suites is -I think- sufficient to adopt regardless of opposition
on the basis that we shouldn't.  But opposition is evidence that we
should first decide the matter of whether to adopt such a policy.

This matters because otherwise the IETF is a pay-to-play SDO with maybe
a few "adults in the room" (the IESG) who can say "no" or force changes.

Currently the appearance is that indeed the IETF is a pay-to-play SDO --
at least others are saying so, therefore the appearance of this is real,
though perhaps the appearance is incorrect.

IMO DJB's appeal in this case should be heard.

Side issues like whether by posting we grant the IETF the right to make
substantial changes to our posts, or what constitutes "substantial", are
interesting too.  I would expect only minimal changes like adding a
mailing list name to posts' Subject line.  Similarly for PDFs, except
maybe to add a copyright statement given that it is a NOTE WELL
contribution.

Regarding the NOTE WELL, I do agree with Lloyd and others that it is not
plausible for regular IETF attendees and even regular mailing-list-only
participants to not be aware of it.  Though it is plausible some just
don't read the fine print.  And it's plausible that DJB was aware but
didn't understand the consequences.  I've not looked at just how
substantial the changes in question were, so it's possible that's much
ado about not much.

Nico
-- 

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