"Paul Speed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Geoff Soutter wrote:
> >
> > "Paul Speed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > For what it's worth, I think that custom tags are the thing
> > > that really saves JSP. On my last project, we were able to
> > > encapsulate all logic into a servlet framework and custom tags.
> > > (Actually, our framework ended up looking very similar to struts
> > > which I think is a very natural evolution of the smart-servlet
> > > design.)
> >
> > Depends what you are trying to do. If you want non-java developers to
edit
> > the source, then custom tags _do_ save the day. Alternatively, Java in
HTML
> > ruins things nicely.
> >
> > IMHO, JSP is just an ASP/CF "me-too"... Not that it means it's not
_useful_,
> > it's just not _elegant_. Look at all the spagetti-code ASP and CF sites
> > there are out there. Course now it has the J2EE stamp of approval, how
good
> > it actually is becomes irrelevant. Sigh.
> >
>
> Yeah, but the nice thing is that it's easy to spot Java code
> in HTML during a code-review... it just looks ugly. It would be nice
> if there was a switch on the JSP compiler that specifically
> disallowed it.
>
> Once you've clamped down on the use of Java code inside the
> JSP's then the developer is forced to use the custom tags. If the
> custom tags only provide presentation control then you can be fairly
> sure that no business/application logic is creeping its way into the
> JSP code.
It reminds me of C or C++ compared to Java - any language where you require
too much self control in order to use it effectively is nasty.
> I've always found it funny that the custom tag examples put
> out by Sun inevitably show how to implement some SQL/JDBC custom
> tags. It's nice as a comparison to Cold Fusion or PHP, but putting
> SQL code right into the HTML is the thing that makes most of us who
> have been doing this for a while cringe. :)
Yeah, it's funny huh. And of course thats exactly the kind of feature that
the majority of JSP coders probably use... sigh.
I think the real problem with the whole JSP/WebMacro/XMLC/ASP/CF scenario is
that HTML itself mixes presentation with logic to the point where any
solution which needs to generate HTML is naturally going to be hacky.
Certainly I've never seen what I consider to be a clean way of letting HTML
people do HTML and Java people do Java. Yes, I've seen some that are better
than others (XMLC is probably the cleanest I've seen), but there are always
problems if you consider anything other than completely simplistic examples.
Witness Jon's Pull Model document... :-)
Geoff
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